Bru'n Water, DIPA and full volume BIAB

[SteveH aka shetc]

Hi Guys,

I'm trying my first serious attempt at using the Bru'n Water calculator. I will be brewing the MoreBeer Pliny the Elder DIPA all-grain kit, using a full volume BIAB with all RO water. The image below shows the Adjustment Summary from the calculator. Since this will be a full volume BIAB, I have included all the required volume of water in the Total Mash Water Vol, and zero Total Sparge Water Vol.

You can see an image of the Adjustment Summary below. Based on my DIPA research, "Boosting the sulfate level into the 200 to 300 ppm is a necessary thing to assist in drying the beer's finish and allowing the hops and bitter to make it out from under all that malt" (mabrungard, Help formulating water profile for DIPA). So I adjusted the water profile with just gypsum, which brought the sulfate to 288 ppm and lowered the pH to 5.41. It seems simple enough -- did I use the calculator correctly?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[petrolSpice]

You should use the batch volume into the fermenter for calculating the mineral additions. When you boil off water, the minerals stay behind and become more concentrated. At least that's how I interpret it.

 

[McKnuckle]

^Uh oh, that's a can of worms!

You are correct about the mineral values becoming more concentrated in the finished beer, but that's not how brewers typically reference these values. When we say "aim for 50 ppm Ca," for example, we're always talking about the pre-boil volume. We aren't talking about the amount of the mineral in the finished beer, which - as you say - will always be higher due to concentration after evaporation.

If it were done that way, all the brewing calculators would show the ppm values relative to the finished beer, but they don't.

P.S. You might find that much sulfate to be disgusting, despite the published guidance. Only time will tell!

 

[enkamania]

I use that profile for my IPA's and pale ales and I love it. I used to be scared of the high sulfate, but I found I liked the end result better.

 

[petrolSpice]

^Uh oh, that's a can of worms!

You are correct about the mineral values becoming more concentrated in the finished beer, but that's not how brewers typically reference these values. When we say "aim for 50 ppm Ca," for example, we're always talking about the pre-boil volume. We aren't talking about the amount of the mineral in the finished beer, which - as you say - will always be higher due to concentration after evaporation.

If it were done that way, all the brewing calculators would show the ppm values relative to the finished beer, but they don't.

P.S. You might find that much sulfate to be disgusting, despite the published guidance. Only time will tell!

If that's the case, then I stand corrected! I've only used Bru'n water twice, once using the mash volume, and once using the fermenter volume.

I'm also doing no sparge BIAB.

 

[Mer-man]

1. Make sure you have the right volumes entered in for your mash (here your total BIAB start volume) and batch size (chilled volume, prior to transfer to fermenter).

2. Make sure you entered your grain bill completely.

3. I will also add that you should mix in your gypsum when heating and stir regularly until it is fully dissolved into solution.

But yeah, it is that simple when you have made it easy by using RO.

 

[mabrungard]

As long as you are boiling off less than about 15% of your wort volume, you shouldn't need to worry about the concentration effect. Brewers that make small batches need to worry about this boil off percentage more than others.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

Just out of curiosity, what commercial beer uses a high sulfate water?

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

So here is a follow-up report about my experience using the Bru'n Water calculator to prepare my RO water for use in brewing a DIPA. I am looking for feedback to help me improve the process.

As suggested by the calculator, I added 17.6 grams of gypsum to 9.1 gallons of RO water. I brought the water to mash temp and thoroughly mashed in my grains. The initial pH reading was 5.66 at 25 C -- the target pH was 5.41. I waited 15 mins and then took another pH reading, which was also 5.66 at 25 C. At 30 mins, the pH still read 5.66 so I added 2 ml of 88% lactic acid, which brought down the pH to 5.40 at 25 C. My total mash time is 90 mins.

Assuming my water and gypsum measurements were correct, can I conclude that the calculator only gives an approximation of the expected target pH since the effect of grain bill on pH is based on fixed values in the calc? Also, should I have made the acid adjustment sooner, say, at the 15 min mark or even right at the beginning of the mash?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[mabrungard]

That is a healthy dose of gypsum and it should have brought the pH into range for a typical pale grist. How sure are you of the purity of your RO water? Did you check its TDS?

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

I buy the water from the local Wholefoods. The dispensing machine has a card that displays the TDS measured for each time the machine is serviced. I can see that the TDS goes up slightly over time - I presume it eventually reaches some limit where it needs more extended servicing. Anyway, my little TDS meter usually matches the machine readings. The last value was 11.

 

[WiscBrewer]

So here is a follow-up report about my experience using the Bru'n Water calculator to prepare my RO water for use in brewing a DIPA. I am looking for feedback to help me improve the process.

As suggested by the calculator, I added 17.6 grams of gypsum to 9.1 gallons of RO water. I brought the water to mash temp and thoroughly mashed in my grains. The initial pH reading was 5.66 at 25 C -- the target pH was 5.41. I waited 15 mins and then took another pH reading, which was also 5.66 at 25 C. At 30 mins, the pH still read 5.66 so I added 2 ml of 88% lactic acid, which brought down the pH to 5.40 at 25 C. My total mash time is 90 mins.

Assuming my water and gypsum measurements were correct, can I conclude that the calculator only gives an approximation of the expected target pH since the effect of grain bill on pH is based on fixed values in the calc? Also, should I have made the acid adjustment sooner, say, at the 15 min mark or even right at the beginning of the mash?

Thanks,

Steve

Others who know more about measuring pH should comment, but....it strikes me as odd that you readings were unchanged over the first 30 minutes of the mash. I think readings typically tend to drift up. Do You feel pretty confident of your readings?

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Used a brand new and calibrated MW102 meter so I assume so

 

[j_dub4t]

I have used Brun Water for years and have found it to be the most accurate estimator for mash pH for my system. Time after time my pH has been within +/- .02, which I find to be acceptable.

However, I just ran into the same problem as shetc. For time savings, I did my first full volume mash on my HERMS system last night (essentially BIAB).

9.75# Rahr 2-row
1.75# Munich
1.75# Victory

I used 8 gallons of water (distilled), and built up to a all salts to match the pale ale profile that is programmed into the Brun spreadsheet (with a slightly lower sulfate level). In order to lower the calculated pH further, I added 12mL of 10% phosphoric. By the spreadsheet, this should have brought my mash to 5.35. I used my Milwaukee pH meter (just calibrated), and my first reading (10 min into mash) was 5.5. Five minutes later it had dropped to 5.48, and remained there at the 20 min mark.

Going back to the spreadsheet, I saw that 5 mL of my acid would only effect the pH by about .02/.03. I dosed an additional 10mL and called it good (without rechecking-what was I going to do at this point?).

I do not know if there is a "sweet spot" for mash thickness for brun water, but perhaps my mash is outside of that?

The better question may be this- does it even matter? When batch sparging, I used to acidify my sparge water to 5.5 pH. If I was targeting a 5.3 ph for my mash and then rinsing through with 5.5 pH water, I would expect the final runoff would not be that original 5.3 that was in the mash. Perhaps it would be this 5.4 something that I am seeing when I go full volume.

I'm not looking for the RDWAHAHB type responses, but rather some insight into the practices of other BIABers. Thanks!