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Blazinlow86

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Curious what people's thoughts are regarding brulosophy. I'll go first. I'm of the opinion that making one or two mistakes may not always come thru on the final product as often showed on brulosophy tests. However im also if the opinion that those mistakes still do make a lesser product regardless and the more of them made on the same brew can end up making a seriously flawed product. I have noticed alot of people that reference brulosophy tests often say " these things don't matter at the homebrew scale" . I've never really understood the difference? Aside from batch size I cannot see what the difference is between pro and home brewing. What do the pros do that would not have the same benefits at home. Do you agree that there has to be a difference in pro vs home brewing? I try to make a professional product at home and when I mention that in other posts it's often laughed at by most. Chhers
 
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I find it to be an interesting read. All those what if... that I don't have time to do, they do.
 
First, it's fun. Don't forget that.

But, it probably isn't science either. What it is, is the perception of average people judging beer without knowing what they're drinking or of beer tasting in and of itself.

The tasting panels seem very adept at recognizing obvious flaws that are so blatant that even a BMC drinker could pick them out.

Take it for what it's worth--if you make the same mistakes that they highlight, most of your friends won't notice it.
 
I’m interested in epistemology (the study of knowledge) and then trying to apply it to things in my life like homebrewing. If you start to ask yourself, “What do I really know for sure”, you find that much of what we think we know is flawed. Epistemology finds that experts are one of the worst sources of knowledge out there. When you refer to professionals, information they offer is expert knowledge and often is flawed. Therefore “mistakes” are also subjective and flawed. The Brülosophy guys don’t work in a laboratory and their experiments aren’t controlled or specific enough to be science, but they have a transparent process and the data is unbiased. This kind of information is often better than science, because it allows you to know things that are specific to our hobby in particular. I know it sounds like I’m a fan boy, but Brülosophy offers homebrewers the best information available of all sources save perhaps personal experience.
 
On the quality of Brulosophy experiments:

I don't think they're that bad. Really. I'm a scientist and I don't see a lot of places there that might be improved.

They're doing two batches as identically as they can, changing one variable (usually). Experimenters will do things like split a yeast starter, ensuring each gets the same thing. The temperatures of mash, fermentation, and so on are very close, such that no reasonable, experienced brewer would expect, say, a .4 degree difference in mash temp to produce a noticeable final result.

The essence of experimentation is control of extraneous variables. Unless they're lying to us about what they're doing (and I don't think they are), they're doing a pretty nice job controlling.

There's a flaw in understanding research that sometimes people make--that is, the fact that you might not have perfectly controlled everything doesn't mean that what you didn't perfectly control had a negative influence on the results. It might have, might not have. If the variable not perfectly controlled differs significantly between experimental and control batch, it might be an alternative explanation for the results. Might be. This is why we replicate.

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My issue w/ the Brulosophy approach is on the back end--deciding if the beers are different or not.

The problem is what different people perceive. My signature says what it says for a reason. I don't care for Belgian beers. There's something about the flavor that turns me off. I can judge them (had one from @Morrey that was an excellent Belgian--but I'd never order one :) ). People who like Belgians would, I'm sure, like Morrey's. No off flavors, good mouthfeel, flavor is rich and full. And I don't care for it!

So when we get a panel of tasters in brulosophy experiments, we're seeing if a bunch of people can tell the difference between two beers. We know nothing about what they've been drinking prior to testing, whether they like the style or not, if they're super tasters versus people like me who are not, of what beer drinkers, if any, the panel is representative.

Further, they don't do the triangle tests correctly, at least as food-science people would do. I attended an off-flavor workshop last summer where they had us do a triangle test--and they randomized the presentation of the beers to different people. In other words, AAB, ABA, BAA, BBA, BAB, ABB. There are six orders where someone could taste the beer, and everybody shouldn't be tasting them the same way.

And we don't know what the panel tasters were drinking just prior. I did a triangle test a little more than a year ago and asked tasters to not have any beer prior to tasting. I don't know what brulosophy tasters are doing.

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When I teach this I have my students, w/r/t sampling, imagine doing a student survey and asking passersby to take that survey. Would their results be different if they were asking student passersby inside the Engineering building compare to those inside the Art building?

I don't know which building the Exbeeriment sample tasters come from. The IPA building? The Sours building? The BMC building?

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On top of that, a typical panel will have more than half the tasters unable to identify the odd-beer-out. Think about that. People are focused on whether the results are significant, which is fine, but there's another very interesting element of the data--most can't tell the beers apart!


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Further, and this part gets me, the writeup usually says, if the result is not significant, something like "tasters were unable to reliably distinguish between the two beers."

Um.....no. Reliability is repeatability or consistency of measurement. If each taster were identical, sure, but they're most assuredly not. I'd be more impressed with the results if tasters came back 3 or 4 days in a row and were able to repeat the same conclusion each time. What we don't know is how many "correct" guesses were in fact that--guesses.

What we have is analogous in some ways to a one-shot case study. No way to know whether the results would be the same tomorrow w/ these same tasters. Or a different set of tasters.

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I've read a little, and seen a few videos, on how the food industry does taste tests. Much more controlled. Among other things, I'd love to see if tasters could, really, distinguish between these beers on successive days. And before drinking any other beer.

Are tasters in the experiments suffering (if that's the right word) from palate fatigue? If the exbeerimental taste test was their first beer of the day would the results be different than after drinking a couple IPAs? Or a slew of other beers?

These are questions I'd want to have answered before drawing any great and weighty conclusions.

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Just to give Marshall a little love, he's trying to do some things. Most of us critical of the methods or the measurements aren't doing a damned thing, including yours truly.

Marshall and his cohorts are "in the arena."

I have done one of these, comparing two beers (IPAs) using Brewtan-B in one, not in the other. Tasters, under more controlled circumstances, were unable to tell the difference.

Now that I can brew 10-gallon batches, maybe I'll try some more.
 
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I think it is an excellent site, entertaining and often informative. One can question the scientific validity of one-off experiments, and often numerous variables such as in the short and shoddy series.

But, what the site excels at is questioning the professor. By taking the "not sure if I believe you Teach, I'm gonna try myself" approach they are promoting discussion and exploration of modern homebrewing.
 
All good answers. Maybe a different way of asking the question would be. Do you agree all the things they find insignificant are actually unimportant or do you feel that it's more that if you only do that **one** insignificant thing it's not very noticible in the finished product. If they did a brew that incorporated all the insignificant results in one brew and that brew was tasted by bcjp judges do you think the beers would still be the same. Cheers
 
I can appreciate what Marshall and crew are doing. As Mongoose33 stated well, they are doing something that most of us would not bother to do and reporting what they have for an outcome. It is science, but it is in no way definitive science from which you can draw firm conclusions. If you take them at their word, and there is no real reason not to, then they are working hard to control all the variables within their power except the one that they are manipulating. When you are paying that much attention to the detail of the process as seemingly forgiving as brewing beer, then you are bound to err on the side of insignificance which is where they most often are. This does not mean that there is not a difference between the two brews they have prepared, but that the tasters are not able to perceive the differences. Start compounding the 'little' differences and things may start to go downhill pretty fast.

Bottom line that it is entertaining, informative and leaves it for the readers to determine if it is worth believing. They put a lot of thought and effort in their experimental design, which is laudable. They try to do as fair a job at sampling and determination of the 'odd beer out' as you can without a lot of support behind them to do a true, full blown randomized triangle test.

To get to the point of the OPs question, when you are that careful at preparation to make sure that the one variable is the only difference, then the odds of that being picked up if the perceptible change is slight is not very high.
 
What I take away from some Brulosophy experiments is the debunking of long-held myths. There are a few persistent beliefs that are still held onto and perpetuated by many brewers, argumentum ad populum. It has become so ingrained in the home brewing culture that it's difficult for some to let go of it.

If someone insists that "it's always been done that way," the skeptic in me asks if it's beneficial to keep doing it that way.
 
This is going to sound snarky...it probably is snarky...OK...it’s snarky... <sigh>

There are already 14 threads with Brulosophy in the title...what are we trying to accomplish in the 15th that the first 14 didn’t?

I want to help..just trying to figure how best to contribute
 
This is going to sound snarky...it probably is snarky...OK...it’s snarky... <sigh>

There are already 14 threads with Brulosophy in the title...what are we trying to accomplish in the 15th that the first 14 didn’t?

I want to help..just trying to figure how best to contribute

But do all 14 threads pose the same question re Brulosophy?
 
To sum up most of the Brulosophy results, which I find enjoyable and interesting and often enlightening: It hearkens back to Charlie P. and his RDWHAHB mantra. Hakuna matata! Most of the stuff we gnash our teeth about is just not that big of a deal.

(Most of it. Not all of it.)

And as a hobbyist I can happily choose to work hard at some things and not at all on others, at my whim. Brulosophy gives us a bit of insight into some of the things we're afraid to try on our own. I dig it.
 
As @mongoose33 already said in his great synopsis, their exbeeraments are limited and subjective.

To semi-answer your question:
Do you agree all the things they find insignificant are actually unimportant or do you feel that it's more that if you only do that **one** insignificant thing it's not very noticible in the finished product.
It depends on the variable. Some are independent whereas others compound and react with each other.

So the short of my overstated reply:
What variable are you questioning? Asking about all of the variables is impossible to answer.
 
If you can hypothetically assume that tasters, if sensitive enough could detect differences in the non-significant exBeeriments, you still can’t assume that the beer that our community would think is faulted would actually taste worse if it could be measured with some magic yardstick. We’ve all made what we perceived as mistakes only to find that we are in a better place than where we were trying to go.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not expecting everyone to hold hands and sing Kum Bah Ya, sure there’s good beer and bad beer, but the difference is a lot less obvious than most of us think. Brülosophy is helping to suss that out.

How do you eat a whale? One bite at a time.
 
Is it strict science? Nope. Is it worth a read? Yup.

My take away is I’ll make beer regardless if I mash at 152 or 154.3. Ph of 5.4 when I was targeting 5.34...I’m not going to start a “is my beer ruined” thread.

Bottom line is you can make good beer and it’s pretty forgiving, especially at a home brew level.
 
As @mongoose33 already said in his great synopsis, their exbeeraments are limited and subjective.

To semi-answer your question:

It depends on the variable. Some are independent whereas others compound and react with each other.

So the short of my overstated reply:
What variable are you questioning? Asking about all of the variables is impossible to answer.
I'm asking if you take **all** the experiments that brulosophy has performed that came back insignificant and tried them **all** at the same time on one beer do you feel that beer would still be insignificantly different than one without the shortcuts? I believe they would be significantly different and majority would prefer the version without the shortcuts. At least in my personal case doing it both ways thats been the case. The other question I had hasn't been answered. What's the difference between pro and homebrew besides batch sizes. If all these things the experiments prove insignificant are done by the pros why do you think they still do them. Wouldn't they have the most to gain by doing less? I'm only asking as it's often stated that " these things dont matter at the homebrew scale" which reads to me as more " it's good enough because it's made at home". Cheers
 
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I'm asking if you take **all** the experiments that brulosophy has performed that came back insignificant and tried them **all** at the same time on one beer do you feel that beer would still be insignificantly different than one without the shortcuts? I believe they would be significantly different and majority would prefer the version without the shortcuts.

You are correct. Significance was found. Maybe not “all”, but at least several variables were tested. Preference was 6-2 preferred the traditionally made beer and 4 had no preference.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/06/26/traditional-vs-short-shoddy-brewing-process-exbeeriment-results/
 
You are correct. Significance was found. Maybe not “all”, but at least several variables were tested. Preference was 6-2 preferred the traditionally made beer and 4 had no preference.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/06/26/traditional-vs-short-shoddy-brewing-process-exbeeriment-results/
Thanks for the reply. I looked and they only did a few variables. I'm talking **ALL** the experiments that alot of people reference as busted as not important. Ph/ aeration / starters / water chemistry etc. I feel the more insignificant experiments they add to that same brew the bigger the preference for the no shortcuts beer would be. Cheers
 
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This is going to sound snarky...it probably is snarky...OK...it’s snarky... <sigh>

There are already 14 threads with Brulosophy in the title...what are we trying to accomplish in the 15th that the first 14 didn’t?

I want to help..just trying to figure how best to contribute
Not to be snarky but just answering the specific question would be helpful enough. Cheers
 
Is it strict science? Nope. Is it worth a read? Yup.

My take away is I’ll make beer regardless if I mash at 152 or 154.3. Ph of 5.4 when I was targeting 5.34...I’m not going to start a “is my beer ruined” thread.

Bottom line is you can make good beer and it’s pretty forgiving, especially at a home brew level.
But what does homebrew level mean? Good enough? Cheers
 
I'm asking if you take **all** the experiments that brulosophy has performed that came back insignificant and tried them **all** at the same time on one beer do you feel that beer would still be insignificantly different than one without the shortcuts? I believe they would be significantly different and majority would prefer the version without the shortcuts. At least in my personal case doing it both ways thats been the case. The other question I had hasn't been answered. What's the difference between pro and homebrew besides batch sizes. If all these things the experiments prove insignificant are done by the pros why do you think they still do them. Wouldn't they have the most to gain by doing less? Cheers

I have a theory on this, don't know how to demonstrate it, but perhaps food for thought.

There are some "best practices" that for scientific reasons presumably improve beer. Things like proper pitch rate, correct pH of the mash, mash temp, freshness of the malt, fermentation temperature, diacetyl rest, avoiding oxygen post-fermentation, and there are many more.


But imagine this: suppose there's some threshold of perception--call it 1.0--where we can tell the difference between "with" and "without." Things that produce a difference below our threshold of perception, below our "1.0" level, can't be perceived. Now suppose that various best practices result in a positive influence, but less than our threshold of 1.0. Say practice "A" produces a positive influence of .8. It's not enough to perceive. But it is still positive.

Now imagine practice "B," "C," and "D" produce positive influences of .7, .4, and .6. None, taken by themselves as a change, produces a perceptible difference. BUT, taken together, .8+.7+.4+.3 add up to 2.2, which above our threshold of perception, i.e., we can tell the difference, and we think it's good.

During my odyssey as a brewer, when I learn of something that for good theoretical and scientific reasons is supposed to improve the beer i'm brewing, I try to adopt it. I'm operating from the assumption that best practices are those for a reason, and it would behoove me to adopt them if I'm trying to produce the best beer I can--which I am.

******

BTW, this is why I'm critical of the tasting methodology of Brulosophy. I find the experiments generally pretty well done. I suspect that there is more there than they are discovering many times there's a "no difference" result, and that the tasting regimen is masking differences that would sometimes otherwise be apparent.

I have another phrase that describes what I do--continuous quality improvement. Every time, I try to do something better. It adds up, or so I believe. The small things matter, taken as a whole. By themselves, the small things may be imperceptible--and if in fact that's the case, the Brulosophy results might simply be reflecting that as a general rule.

But I believe those small differences, those small improvements, when added together, matter. Really matter. My beer has gotten to be very good, good enough that others want to buy it from me (they can't, I'm not licensed), and even a local bar owner wants me to supply the bar. Looking into the license thing.

The small things matter. I believe it. YMMV.
 
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I have a theory on this, don't know how to demonstrate it, but perhaps food for thought.

There are some "best practices" that for scientific reasons presumably improve beer. Things like proper pitch rate, correct pH of the mash, mash temp, freshness of the malt, fermentation temperature, diacetyl rest, avoiding oxygen post-fermentation, and there are many more.


But imagine this: suppose there's some threshold of perception--call it 1.0--where we can tell the difference between "with" and "without." Things that produce a difference below our threshold of perception, below our "1.0" level, can't be perceived. Now suppose that various best practices result in a positive influence, but less than our threshold of 1.0. Say practice "A" produces a positive influence of .8. It's not enough to perceive. But it is still positive.

Now imagine practice "B," "C," and "D" produce positive influences of .7, .4, and .6. None, taken by themselves as a change, produces a perceptible difference. BUT, taken together, .8+.7+.4+.3 add up to 2.2, which above our threshold of perception, i.e., we can tell the difference, and we think it's good.

During my odyssey as a brewer, when I learn of something that for good theoretical and scientific reasons is supposed to improve the beer i'm brewing, I try to adopt it. I'm operating from the assumption that best practices are those for a reason, and it would behoove me to adopt them if I'm trying to produce the best beer I can--which I am.

******

BTW, this is why I'm critical of the tasting methodology of Brulosophy. I find the experiments generally pretty well done. I suspect that there is more there than they are discovering each time there's a "no difference" result, and that the tasting regimen is masking differences that would otherwise be apparent.

I have another phrase that describes what I do--continuous quality improvement. Every time, I try to do something better. It adds up, or so I believe. The small things matter, taken as a whole. By themselves, the small things may be imperceptible--and if in fact that's the case, the Brulosophy results might simply be reflecting that as a general rule.

But I believe those small differences, those small improvements, when added together, matter. Really matter. My beer has gotten to be very good, good enough that others want to buy it from me (they can't, I'm not licensed), and even a local bar owner wants me to supply the bar. Looking into the license thing.

The small things matter. I believe it. YMMV.
We think alike. cheers
 
I'm not a pro brewer and haven't done a batch size over 6.5 gal for beer and wine/cider at 10gal. So please take my response with a grain of malt.

Also, you didn't ask a question, you asked an open questions akin to, what is the meaning of life.

Exbeerments:
Some variables conflict each other therefore its impossible for a beer to have all included variables. I will not explain further as I have no aspirations to compare and report back. I'm lazy that way and I accept it.

Pro vs homebrew question... where to start.
Size matters. A small flaw in a small batch is bigger than a small flaw in a big batch. Also recall that a small flaw magnified 100x is significantly more distorted than at 1x. Under pitching a 5 gal batch by 50% is not as significant as 50% under pitching a 100 gal batch. The flaws are not linear, they are often exponential and/or logarithmic.

Secondly, from a hb perspective, you need to like your brew. Thats all. Just you. At pro, your livelihood depends on your success and reproducibility is key.

3rd, I've been drinking, a lot.. There's probably another dozen or so points to make but my last point is, try it and see. Usually the cost on a home scale does not justify the difference. But once you spend 2,3,4+K on your gear, you are probably going to use it (or at least say you do) and think that it makes a difference l. Maybe to make you feel better about spending the $$$, but if it helps you make good brew... then who cares.

Theres also the keeping up with the Jones' aspect. I'm lucky enough to meet up with a bunch of local home-brewers a couple times a year. Wide range of skills. Some extract brewers (like me) and some no expenses spared a.g. brewers with lab-like precision.

Who has the best brew every year? Depends on what you like, but you can't tell who has what setup simply from the glass. Only way to know is if you follow the keg lines (or believe the tap list).
 
Now imagine practice "B," "C," and "D" produce positive influences of .7, .4, and .6. None, taken by themselves as a change, produces a perceptible difference. BUT, taken together, .8+.7+.4+.3 add up to 2.2, which above our threshold of perception, i.e., we can tell the difference, and we think it's good.

When applying this math, practice B, C and D, there is no way to know what the math would look like without extensive study. They could be first order, second order, weighted or even canceling for all we know.

Following best practices is a great way to feel good about your product. In fact, if you believe yourself to be following best practices, your bias will lead you to believe that your beer tastes better than those who don’t follow best practices. What we don’t know about ourselves and our actions, has far more impact than what we do know.

Again don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that your practices aren’t best, it’s just that you can’t know that they are. You’re just making educated guesses like the rest of us. Those of us who are trying to make great beer don’t skip steps that we consider important on purpose. What people consider important and not important is where the discussion starts and the subjectivity and ambiguity never ends.

That fact that you are sure of best practices by definition means blindness to those things you don’t know.
 
When applying this math, practice B, C and D, there is no way to know what the math would look like without extensive study. They could be first order, second order, weighted or even canceling for all we know.

Of course. It's theoretical. I could have made it multiplicative instead of additive, or used weighted parameters or even presumed an interaction.

Were you wanting a defensible mathematical treatment of this, or are you just not satisfied with my initial comments describing this as "perhaps food for thought"?

Following best practices is a great way to feel good about your product. In fact, if you believe yourself to be following best practices, your bias will lead you to believe that your beer tastes better than those who don’t follow best practices. What we don’t know about ourselves and our actions, has far more impact than what we do know.

This is what happens when people don't read the entire post. You're presuming confirmation bias, and as a scientist, I am well aware of that possibility.

That's why I don't rely solely on my own assessment of my beer. I have others, a lot of others actually, give me feedback on it.

It's also why I think that others wanting to buy my beer, and wanting to sell it in a bar, is perhaps at least a tiny little indicator that it's not confirmation bias. What do you think?


Again don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that your practices aren’t best, it’s just that you can’t know that they are. You’re just making educated guesses like the rest of us. Those of us who are trying to make great beer don’t skip steps that we consider important on purpose. What people consider important and not important is where the discussion starts and the subjectivity and ambiguity never ends.

That fact that you are sure of best practices by definition means blindness to those things you don’t know.

I'm using what I believe to be best practices. Am I sure of it? I can't imagine what I said above that would lead you to draw that conclusion. And as far as the things I don't know, that's silly. There are always things we don't know, and I don't have any idea what you think that signifies.

I really, really think you should read that post again. I'm a scientist. Objectivity is the essence of science. One thing I do know--and I don't know it all--is that by using triangulation I'm increasing the chances that my conclusions are correct.

How am I triangulating? I'm using what are presumed to be best practices. That's one. I like that beer myself. That's two. I've had tremendous positive reactions to my beer, including at a public event in October. That's three. I had two friends last week ask to buy my beer. Buy it. At market prices. That's four. I have a local bar owner who wants to sell my beer exclusively. That's five.

How many of these would you need before you thought that perhaps it might be working? I believe I'm on the right path; you can travel whichever ones you want.
 
Funny, I have been wondering when a thread like this would come up. I have a relatively long post, please bear with me here. So, I am hard-core, super-nerdy scientist. Academic science, publishing, peer-review, editing journals, all that garbage is my living. The interesting thing is, how information gets out into the “public realm” (in quotes because people have to pay a lot of money to access a lot of it) has changed in the last 25 years. At one time, it was “here is the data, here is my interpretation, reader please interpret it as YOU see fit.” Some publishing forums still promote this, but most other journals have things like “highlights” or “significance statements,” which are often taken as fact and used to generate buzz and hype, frequently in the form of press releases. The issue is, the vast majority of what gets published is a compromise of sorts, with flaws and other issues. Yet, because they have survived peer-review, they become gospel and, sometimes, policy ends up based on these studies (pretty sure everyone can think of something that at one point was taken as “true” only to be debunked at a later date – I think moderate alcohol consumption has swung between good vs bad at least a few times in the last decade). It is a bit scary at times. But here is the thing: the Brulosophy guys simply say “here is the data, here is our interpretation, use it as you will because I don’t really care what you do.” I totally respect this. It is very refreshing.

But what I really like about Brulosophy goes back to my first point. Often times pro/academic brewing gods and their text-books are referred to as if they were unquestionable fact. I really like that Brulosophay is questioning this – it is healthy and good for brewing in general. As an example, I could easily write a book in my area of expertise. I could make all the arguments I want and support them with a million references. Here is the thing, I could choose to make some marginal arguments based on my “expert” opinion (thank you AZCooler), and support them with references that may be of dubious quality. I have perused the brewing literature and believe me, there are some questionable studies there. At the end of the day, I could publish this tome (yes, it is pretty easy to publish a book – I get invited all the time) and because it was published the world would accept this, and my opinions, as an authority in the area. Sadly, this is how it tends to work. It is truly insidious and something to warrant caution. In some of his review articles Bamforth himself points out holes and calls into question various aspects of the brewing lore. Biochemistry textbooks are certainly rife with errors and students are expected to accept these as fact.

If we follow “best practices” as prescribed by the brewing gods we will make good beer and achieve certain flavor profiles. However, this doesn’t mean that the practices can’t be broken and still make good beer.. ..perhaps there is better beer waiting out there if the rules are broken in the right way? And this this is where Brulosophy is really interesting to me. Despite what people may think, the Brulosophy guys are doing science. For example, as part of my teaching obligations, I incorporate aspects of the history of science, and going back less than 80-100 years there was science that changed the world that was less sound than what Brulosophy is doing. I’m not s#$%ing you here. Brulosophy may not changing brewing, but they are making homebrewers think a bit more and perhaps making them be a bit more comfortable with the process.

For my part, I evaluate their results with an open mind. Sometimes I find value, such as not worrying so much about whether I can control a fermentation with Saflager 34/70 in the 50’s or below. Other times I reject it – e.g. underpitching a lager just makes me nervous. Would I ignore attention to *ALL* of the stuff they find insignificant at the same time - not a chance, I'm too cowardly. So there is my opinion o_O

Cheers
 
Funny, I have been wondering when a thread like this would come up. I have a relatively long post, please bear with me here. So, I am hard-core, super-nerdy scientist. Academic science, publishing, peer-review, editing journals, all that garbage is my living. The interesting thing is, how information gets out into the “public realm” (in quotes because people have to pay a lot of money to access a lot of it) has changed in the last 25 years. At one time, it was “here is the data, here is my interpretation, reader please interpret it as YOU see fit.” Some publishing forums still promote this, but most other journals have things like “highlights” or “significance statements,” which are often taken as fact and used to generate buzz and hype, frequently in the form of press releases. The issue is, the vast majority of what gets published is a compromise of sorts, with flaws and other issues. Yet, because they have survived peer-review, they become gospel and, sometimes, policy ends up based on these studies (pretty sure everyone can think of something that at one point was taken as “true” only to be debunked at a later date – I think moderate alcohol consumption has swung between good vs bad at least a few times in the last decade). It is a bit scary at times. But here is the thing: the Brulosophy guys simply say “here is the data, here is our interpretation, use it as you will because I don’t really care what you do.” I totally respect this. It is very refreshing.

But what I really like about Brulosophy goes back to my first point. Often times pro/academic brewing gods and their text-books are referred to as if they were unquestionable fact. I really like that Brulosophay is questioning this – it is healthy and good for brewing in general. As an example, I could easily write a book in my area of expertise. I could make all the arguments I want and support them with a million references. Here is the thing, I could choose to make some marginal arguments based on my “expert” opinion (thank you AZCooler), and support them with references that may be of dubious quality. I have perused the brewing literature and believe me, there are some questionable studies there. At the end of the day, I could publish this tome (yes, it is pretty easy to publish a book – I get invited all the time) and because it was published the world would accept this, and my opinions, as an authority in the area. Sadly, this is how it tends to work. It is truly insidious and something to warrant caution. In some of his review articles Bamforth himself points out holes and calls into question various aspects of the brewing lore. Biochemistry textbooks are certainly rife with errors and students are expected to accept these as fact.

If we follow “best practices” as prescribed by the brewing gods we will make good beer and achieve certain flavor profiles. However, this doesn’t mean that the practices can’t be broken and still make good beer.. ..perhaps there is better beer waiting out there if the rules are broken in the right way? And this this is where Brulosophy is really interesting to me. Despite what people may think, the Brulosophy guys are doing science. For example, as part of my teaching obligations, I incorporate aspects of the history of science, and going back less than 80-100 years there was science that changed the world that was less sound than what Brulosophy is doing. I’m not s#$%ing you here. Brulosophy may not changing brewing, but they are making homebrewers think a bit more and perhaps making them be a bit more comfortable with the process.

For my part, I evaluate their results with an open mind. Sometimes I find value, such as not worrying so much about whether I can control a fermentation with Saflager 34/70 in the 50’s or below. Other times I reject it – e.g. underpitching a lager just makes me nervous. Would I ignore attention to *ALL* of the stuff they find insignificant at the same time - not a chance, I'm too cowardly. So there is my opinion o_O

Cheers


thanks for your reply. i agree 100% about the "Would I ignore attention to *ALL* of the stuff they find insignificant at the same time - not a chance, I'm too cowardly" part and that was more so the base of the question. coincidentally i was ignoring attention to most of the things they find insignificant when i first started brewing and my beer suffered tremendously. that being said im a pretty picky drinker. theres no doubt in m mind that it all adds up at the end. i was just more curious how many others agree or disagree cheers
 
@mongoose33 I’m sure your beer is excellent. It is my opinion that making great homebrew is far easier than making great commercial beer. It is very easy for me to hold my carboy up to the light and make sure that it is extremely clean. It is a common human fault that when we find success, we find ourselves the cause of that success.
 
@mongoose33 I’m sure your beer is excellent. It is my opinion that making great homebrew is far easier than making great commercial beer. It is very easy for me to hold my carboy up to the light and make sure that it is extremely clean. It is a common human fault that when we find success, we find ourselves the cause of that success.

do you feel that its easier to make great homebrew vs commercial because you end up with the same end product as the pros with less processes or is it easier because your expectations are lower because its home brewed? cheers
 
thanks for your reply. i agree 100% about the "Would I ignore attention to *ALL* of the stuff they find insignificant at the same time - not a chance, I'm too cowardly" part and that was more so the base of the question. coincidentally i was ignoring attention to most of the things they find insignificant when i first started brewing and my beer suffered tremendously. that being said im a pretty picky drinker. theres no doubt in m mind that it all adds up at the end. i was just more curious how many others agree or disagree cheers

Ha, yeah, sorry. Guess it took me a while to get down off of my soapbox and to the point of your post. Guess my main message was a bit more general in that that faith can be as easily misplaced in other sources as it can be in Brulosophy. Question everything.

Cheers
 
do you feel that its easier to make great homebrew vs commercial because you end up with the same end product as the pros with less processes or is it easier because your expectations are lower because its home brewed? cheers

I was shocked at how good my beer was compared to commercial beer after having only brewed 4 batches. My expectations for my beer are much higher than that of commercial because I know what homebrew’s potential is. I still can’t believe what good beer I make. Even my mistakes are usually better then commercial examples, with notable exceptions (like my partygyle experiment). But even then, I learned something of value trying something new.
 
I was shocked at how good my beer was compared to commercial beer after having only brewed 4 batches. My expectations for my beer are much higher than that of commercial because I know what homebrew’s potential is. I still can’t believe what good beer I make. Even my mistakes are usually better then commercial examples, with notable exceptions (like my partygyle experiment). But even then, I learned something of value trying something new.


nice i wish i had the same experience as you with such minimal effort. it took me alot of effort , money , time and over 500g of beer and im still not up there with my favorite commercial stuff all the time and most definately not after only 4 batches. most of the guys in my club cant even make a 5/10 beer and some have been brewing for 10 years .cheers
 
They do great work. I mean like them or not, take the findings to heart or not, the work is fun to read, well conceived and engaging. Props to Marshall and the crew for sure. Plus on their site he has all kinds of other info on hops and processes etc. Its pretty sweet.
 
I’m reading brew like a monk right now. The author who clearly enjoys Trappist beer also suggests that it isn’t some sort of magical elixir touched by angels. I think that the idea of the elixir of the Gods is a bunch of hooey and that a thousand dollar bottle of wine is no better than a 50 dollar bottle. It’s like that guy in the modern malt thread whose family has been making malt for years and makes as good or better malt than anyone out there. He says himself it’s really not that hard. Frankly, I believe him.

It’s really not that hard to make good things at home.

If your beer is worse than commercial beer:

a.) You hold well known well loved beers in higher esteem than the beer warrents.

b.) Are biased against homebrew because you aren’t a Trappist monk.
 
My biggest criticism of Brulosophy is their arbitrary worship of the 95% confidence level, which misleads people in a BIG way. Example:

"...13 participants (P<0.05) would have had to correctly identify the cool ferment sample as being unique, while only 12 (p=0.083) were capable of doing so, meaning 14 tasters selected one of the other samples. Although close, these results suggest tasters in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish between pale lagers of the same recipe fermented 20˚F/11˚C apart,”

Conclusions like that one drive me up the wall. There is in fact 91.7% confidence that there might be a detectable difference between the samples, but they say there's not. Whatever.

Marshall can accept constant criticism, since meanwhile he is supported by millions, so he can choose to absorb as much or as little criticism as he wants. Celebrity status. As long as he is never accused of sexual harrassment or racism, he'll continue to be adored by the masses.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marshall a lot, he's a very decent guy. It's just... he doesn't know us from Adam, and he's bombarded, so why should we be here discussing this, why should he give a poopy at all... he doesn't have to listen.

Related recent thread on another forum:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...t-rehydration-experiment.601466/#post-6364443
 
My biggest criticism of Brulosophy is their arbitrary worship of the 95% confidence level, which misleads people in a BIG way. Example:

"...13 participants (P<0.05) would have had to correctly identify the cool ferment sample as being unique, while only 12 (p=0.083) were capable of doing so, meaning 14 tasters selected one of the other samples. Although close, these results suggest tasters in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish between pale lagers of the same recipe fermented 20˚F/11˚C apart,”

Conclusions like that one drive me up the wall. There is in fact 91.7% confidence that there might be a detectable difference between the samples, but they say there's not. Whatever.

Marshall can accept constant criticism, since meanwhile he is supported by millions, so he can choose to absorb as much or as little criticism as he wants. Celebrity status. As long as he is never accused of sexual harrassment or racism, he'll continue to be adored by the masses.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marshall a lot, he's a very decent guy. It's just... he doesn't know us from Adam, and he's bombarded, so why should we be here discussing this, why should he give a poopy at all... he doesn't have to listen.

Related recent thread on another forum:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...t-rehydration-experiment.601466/#post-6364443

Blindly serving the .05 level of significance gives the enterprise the appearance of being scientific. What gets me about that is those who "correctly" chose the odd-beer-out are then asked to decide which one is better....and that includes the ones who guessed, and simply have no idea which is different.

Can't figure out why you'd want those who couldn't tell the difference between the beers to then decide which is better.

What I also find funny about this is my objections to the panel are well-known; I don't know if they're able to perceive differences because there's no prohibition on drinking prior. In your example above, they fall one short of "significance," which makes me wonder if there had been some quality control on the tasters beforehand whether more would have detected a difference...and thus the exercise would have reached "significance."

I agree with you about .05....nothing holy about that. Well, if you attend the church of science, maybe there is. :)
 
I agree with you about .05....nothing holy about that. Well, if you attend the church of science, maybe there is. :)
I think this explains how useful 0.05 is...
significant.png
 
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