Brown and Amber Malt

[Miraculix]

Hi!

I am trying to figure out what to use Amber and brown malt for. I only encountered negative impacts of those two when used, in fact I am close to just throwing away the 2 or 3kg that I got left at home.

I brewed a dark mild with about 7% each which turned out bad with strong grain bitterness and a plastic like after taste. Just horrible, dumper.

After that I experimented with the malts, I brewed 1 gallon test batches with lager malt and10% of the malt I wanted to examine.

Did that with dehusked roast barley, chocolate malt and with brown malt, so three beers in total. All with the same yeast and hops, around 20ibu 60min.

Due to a mistake in the first beer, where I ended up with a higher mashing temp than expected, I had to go with 70c in all batches to be able to compare them.

The roast barley and the chocolate malt one turned into nice and sweet stouts. I enjoy them and am glad to get to know those two each on it's own. Learned a lot.

The brown malt one is too astringent and "grain bitter" and is not so nice to drink... I didn't try amber malt, but according to what I have read,I expect even worse. The worst is that I could not taste any positive aspect that I would like to have in a beer when tasting the brown malt beer, nothing.

So my question to you guys, what do you do with those two???

 

[thehaze]

I have used Brown malt ( 7% ) from Crisp in a Coffee Brown ale, with Maris Otter, Crystal malts and a Light Coffee Malt from Chateau Malting. The beer, apart from beeing a bit dry, it does have a mild-medium coffee presence, some light roastiness, but no astringency...

Amber malt, also from Crisp, I have used in a Red Ale last year, but again did not get any astringency or weird flavours. It was in fact a bit roasty and kinda dry, so I thought it does not suit a Red ale, at least for my tastes.

Maybe those two are better in recipes for Baltic Porters, Stout, Brown Porters, where they can be balanced out with some sweet/caramelly Crystal malts.

 

[Yooper]

Amber malt is great in small quantities, with no plastic or burnt flavor. I use it in a couple of American IPAs. It's biscuity and and really great in a nut brown ale. I don't know why you'd have bad results with it, unless it overpowered the other malts in a mild.

Brown malt is the distinctive flavor in brown porters. I don't use much- maybe a couple of pounds in a 10 gallon batch. That's the only thing I use it for, though.

 

[Miraculix]

Amber malt is great in small quantities, with no plastic or burnt flavor. I use it in a couple of American IPAs. It's biscuity and and really great in a nut brown ale. I don't know why you'd have bad results with it, unless it overpowered the other malts in a mild.

Brown malt is the distinctive flavor in brown porters. I don't use much- maybe a couple of pounds in a 10 gallon batch. That's the only thing I use it for, though.

Thanks for the reply to both of you. Maybe I just have a bad batch of malt? There is no coffee in the brown malt test beer, only astringent bitterness, nothing else that I would consider desirable in lower quantities. Don't remember the brand of it... Maybe I will make a one gallon batch with the Amber at one point but the brown malt I got here is definitely nothing I would want to see in a porter, judged on it's taste.

Also the colour with 10 % of it in the grist is not even going into the direction of something dark.

 

[chickypad]

I use 16% brown malt in a brown porter recipe that I really like (my LHBS stocks Crisp). I don't know that I would want a beer with just 10% brown/90% lager malt, and I definitely wouldn't do that with amber. As Yooper said amber in small amounts is really nice. I accidentally doubled the amount in her dogfish clone once when scaling a recipe and it was too much - very drying like using too much victory. I think she uses 2-3% together with just some base malt. Most of the beers I use brown and amber in have other balancing malts like crystal. I could see where large amounts could taste a little bitter depending on the recipe, pretty sure your plastic taste is from something else though.

Here's the grainbill for that porter, it's quite yummy and easy drinking - not harsh at all:

Maris Otter 64.0 %
Brown Malt 16.0 %
Pale Chocolate Malt 7.0 %
CaraStan 30/37 7.0 %
Barley, Flaked 4.0 %
Midnight Wheat 2.0 %

 

[chickypad]

Also the colour with 10 % of it in the grist is not even going into the direction of something dark.

And this makes sense. Today's brown malt is like 60-70L and amber only around 25L. When historical porters were made with brown malt I'm pretty sure it was close to 100% of the grainbill. As I understand that was different from the brown malt we have today.

 

[Hanglow]

Brown is terrific in porters/stouts

Amber is sometimes good in low amounts in bitters/pale ales and higher amounts in porters/stouts and will depend on the maltster .

crisp - more biscuit
simpson - in the middle
fawcettt- coffee notes

not sure about other ones, but I wouldn't use fawcetts amber in a bitter for example

simpsons is used by Fullers in their 1845 (amber) and London Porter (brown)

 

[ESBrewer]

Amber could be used as an adjunct in bitters much like chocolate or roasted barley. I think Timothy Taylor, for example. uses amber in bitters to give a little bit of bitter malt notes and deeper color. Also in Scottish ales etc. Sounds weird that you find it so bitter and unpleasant compared to chocolate, there might be something wrong with it or then it doesn't fit the style of your beer in these quantities. Because Amber is relatively slightly roasted I would expect it to have less dark roasted character. In fact many sources claim it is quite pleasant and warm for a roasted grain.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I've used brown malt only once in a Brown Porter at about 10 percent, with a small amount of Chocolate malt and no crystal. I did find it to be really astringent, but I think it was just too much with no contrasting sweet flavor to counter it, and it also finished quite dry. Can't blame the malt.

Amber, however, I've used several times and I'm a fan. I think the trick is to keep it bellow 5% of the grist, and it will add a nice, toasty complement to most beers.

 

[carloslavin]

I think of Amber malt as Biscuit/Victory on steroids. Any beer where a bit of toasty is welcome (like some ambers, or an irish red) would be a good place to start. Not overdoing it might be key.

Brown malt as many have said is great in a brown porter. There are several fuller's london porter clone recipes around, and Brown is always used prominently. I tried one of these myself and definitely get a different profile vs a just-roasted-malts porter. More toasty, less roasty if that makes sense.

 

[Miraculix]

I've used brown malt only once in a Brown Porter at about 10 percent, with a small amount of Chocolate malt and no crystal. I did find it to be really astringent, but I think it was just too much with no contrasting sweet flavor to counter it, and it also finished quite dry. Can't blame the malt.

Amber, however, I've used several times and I'm a fan. I think the trick is to keep it bellow 5% of the grist, and it will add a nice, toasty complement to most beers.

Exactly my experience with the brown. Although my test beer was quite sweet as it was mashed really high so theoretically there should be balance. Still, not much to find in that beer that I would like to incorporate into any of my "real" beers.

Will probably have a look at that amber again.

 

[Miraculix]

Amber could be used as an adjunct in bitters much like chocolate or roasted barley. I think Timothy Taylor, for example. uses amber in bitters to give a little bit of bitter malt notes and deeper color. Also in Scottish ales etc. Sounds weird that you find it so bitter and unpleasant compared to chocolate, there might be something wrong with it or then it doesn't fit the style of your beer in these quantities. Because Amber is relatively slightly roasted I would expect it to have less dark roasted character. In fact many sources claim it is quite pleasant and warm for a roasted grain.

I agree, there might be something wrong with the brown. The beer I brewed was just a Nottingham test beer to get to know the taste. Shouldn't result in such a bad flavour. It is not a dumper, but also not great.

 

[bierhaus15]

IMO, Fawcett's makes the best Amber and Brown malt, with some of the other versions being pretty far from the real thing (ie. American versions). That said, both malts can be difficult to use in modern styles where their flavor is hard to balance. I mostly use them in English mild/brown/porters and have really liked the addition of amber malt to Scottish styles. Years ago I bought a full sack of brown and in trying to figure out what to brew with it, just started using it in historical recipes. Now I have a hard time brewing a mild or porter without including a good % of brown malt.

Also, watch out for water chemistry when using both brown and amber, as the acidity contribution of the malts is neither a base malt or roasted. It is pretty easy to make a terrible beer using brown malt if your water chem is not balanced.

 

[Queequeg]

Just made an impy with 4.5lb of brown malt. Tastes like coffee and cocca, also quite biscuity.

Amber is certainly drying. My friend just made and IPA with 10% amber. It too dry and astringent for my pallet.

 

[JKaranka]

A porter without brown is also known as a crime! :-D

Porter and stout take well to brown up to 15-20%. It should be fairly rich and malty, with some very light cocoa type roast. Should be dry but come across just a tad sweet when a lot is used. Its great for layering with other malts (roast, black, chocolate, crystal) to hit a range of roast notes. You can use smaller amounts in dark milds, brown ales, old ales, Burton ales, etc. It's my second most used malt after pale.

Amber malt is dry, biscuit, grainy, toasty and somewhat aggressive. I don't use more than 2-3% for paler beers and 5-6% for darker beers (I believe it benefits an imperial stout, for example). It's a bit like the anchovies in a Worcester sauce or puttanesca: you want them to be there but not make it a fish sauce.

 

[Miraculix]

IMO, Fawcett's makes the best Amber and Brown malt, with some of the other versions being pretty far from the real thing (ie. American versions). That said, both malts can be difficult to use in modern styles where their flavor is hard to balance. I mostly use them in English mild/brown/porters and have really liked the addition of amber malt to Scottish styles. Years ago I bought a full sack of brown and in trying to figure out what to brew with it, just started using it in historical recipes. Now I have a hard time brewing a mild or porter without including a good % of brown malt.

Also, watch out for water chemistry when using both brown and amber, as the acidity contribution of the malts is neither a base malt or roasted. It is pretty easy to make a terrible beer using brown malt if your water chem is not balanced.

You might be on to something here regarding the water chemistry. What exactly would be the parameter that could cause the astringent trouble I witnessed?

 

[Hanglow]

Too high ph either in the mash and/or sparging would . and the ones you made with chocolate and RB would have a lower mash ph than one made with brown malt assuming you used the same water treatment for all three, although I'm not sure what difference it would be.

 

[Miraculix]

After a few months in the bottle, my strong brown malt experiment became actually quite drinkable. It is fairly strong with about seven percent abv but tastes nice. The astringent part mellowed out and some nice malt and biscuit type flavour remained. So there's still hope for me and the brown malt to get along

 

[Miraculix]

OK, just to finish this one... I am having one of the brown malt beers right now and I love it. It is really nice, something I have not had in a commercial example. It has something I cannot even describe. It is strong and sweet and nice. maybe this is how the porters during the 18th century tasted like, don't know. But the astringency is definitly gone. There is some cookie coffee goodness remaining... and ... it is strrrrong beer

 

[rhys333]

I picked up 2 lbs of Fawcett amber malt thinking it can be used at 5 to 10% of grist, similar to victory malt. Good thing I read this thread before brewing!

As for Brown, I use 10% in my porter and it works wonderfully. It just adds a nice complexity along with the chocolate malt I use, both flavor and aroma. The key is to get the mash pH up around 5.5, and the beer is smooooth. At 5.4 and lower it's harsh.

@Hanglow - How much of the Fawcett amber malt do you like to use? I'm thinking a hint of coffee could work well in an amber, red or brown.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

As others have probably said, brown in larger portions of the grist needs some time to mellow/smooth out. In smaller amounts Crisp brown just give a little toasted/roasted nuts feel imo,I use 2% of it in my strong bitter and really like what it brings to the table.

 

[schmurf]

Nowadays I almost always put some amber malt in my bitters (simpsons), up to about 4%. To me it enhances the flavour I want in my bitters.

 

[rhys333]

As others have probably said, brown in larger portions of the grist needs some time to mellow/smooth out. In smaller amounts Crisp brown just give a little toasted/roasted nuts feel imo,I use 2% of it in my strong bitter and really like what it brings to the table.

I'm not finding that brown malt needs time to mellow, but that could be down to maltster, at least in part. I just kegged a 14 day old porter that includes 10% Fawcett brown malt plus 5% chocolate malt and it's smooth right out of the fermentor. Higher mash pH makes all the difference.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm not finding that brown malt needs time to mellow, but that could be down to maltster, at least in part. I just kegged a 14 day old porter that includes 10% Fawcett brown malt plus 5% chocolate malt and it's smooth right out of the fermentor. Higher mash pH makes all the difference.

Actually, that sounds a bit wrong. Everywhere it is said that a high mash pH enhances tannin extraction. You're sure that you don't mean a lower mash pH?

 

[rhys333]

Actually, that sounds a bit wrong. Everywhere it is said that a high mash pH enhances tannin extraction. You're sure that you don't mean a lower mash pH?

I'm sure, but I'm not saying high mash pH, as in 5.6 tannin danger zone. I'm saying higher, relative to 5.3-5.4, which I like for pale beer styles. As an example, I like wheat beer, blonde, cream ale, etc. at 5.3 to 5.35, which results in a crispness that also highlights individual malt character. A wheat beer at 5.4+ by contrast is dull and claggy.

Now, if I do 5.4 pH for porter and stout, that same crispness results in harsh roasty flavors that I really don't like. But a mash pH of 5.5 in a roasty beer rounds out the malt flavors, resulting in a smooth easy-drinking beer from the get-go. By doing this, I can have a stout with 12-15% dark roasted malts ready to drink as soon as it's kegged. The flavors will still change a bit over time, like with any beer, but it's the difference between fresh and aged rather than harsh and smooth.

Give it a go sometime and I think you'll agree.