Brewing with 100% unmalted grain

[fofusak]

Hello,

Have anyone tried to brew with 100% unmalted grains, adding the needed enzymes?

I did an experiment yesterday, and I don't know what did I do wrong.

I'll tell my story, maybe somebody likes the idea or can point out what I did wrong

I wanted to make a popcorn beer, so I popped 2 lb of popcorn with an air popper. Supposedly this would gelatinize the starches, but I assumed not completely. So I put my popcorn in a pot with water and keep it there at 200F for 60 minutes. This should have gelatinized the starches.

I let it cool down and I added enzymes (BSG amylase, which should have both alpha and beta) to the mash so I could get my sugars. I mashed for 60 minutes at 152 F. A iodine test showed no conversion, so I tried different things. 60 mins at 145 F with more enzymes (fearing I may have denatured them) still no conversion, 60 mins at 155 F, still no conversion! I tasted my "wort" and wasn't sweet at all. I thought maybe the amylase wasn't getting everywhere, so I separated my solids and sparged. Again I tried the same temperatures and times with my solid-free "wort". At the end of the day, no conversion!.

The only thing I can think of that I didn't measure, was the pH, but I'm not sure if this could have caused this. At the end I was sure I'd just put it in a carboy with some yeast and see what happened, but when I was mashing out, I saw a thin layer on top of my "wort", telling my that I had simply starchy water.

What a sad way to spend a Sunday.

Anyway, I wanted to know if somebody had successfully executed an all-grain brew with 100% unmalted grain to poke on their knowledge and ideas

Thanks!

 

[jtratcliff]

Don't know why this didn't work... I've read about people using it as an adjunct, but not for the entire grist.
Seems like the amylase should have done something, though. Did you grind the popped corn at all, or just throw them in whole?

Did you measure the gravity at all? Maybe there was some conversion? Just not full enough to pass an iodine test...

Might have need to start at a lower initial rest before bring it to saccharification temps?
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-protein-rest-and-modification

This dude actually malted the popcorn kernels himself....
https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/100-popcorn-malt-ale-tasting/

 

[fofusak]

This dude actually malted the popcorn kernels himself....
https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/100-popcorn-malt-ale-tasting/

Yes! haha, I thought of doing my popcorn brew, and looked for success stories. That guy was exactly why I decided to pursue it. Somebody did something *close* and did good.

However, I didn't want to malt it myself, hence the enzymes.

Did measure the gravity at all? Maybe there was some conversion? Just not full enough to pass an iodine test...
https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/100-popcorn-malt-ale-tasting/

No I didn't I regret it so much!

Did you grind the popped corn at all, or just through them in whole?
https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/100-popcorn-malt-ale-tasting/

No... I thought that since the kernels were popped, I would not need to mill the popcorn. Actually I wanted to mill the kernels, but my corona mill wasn't strong enough. I saw some metal chips in there and decided to pop it. But this is a great question, why do you think this could have something to do? I thought that milling was more of a thing for efficiency :O!

Thanks!

 

[jtratcliff]

why do you think this could have something to do? I thought that milling was more of a thing for efficiency :O!

Just wondering if maybe the "popped" structure doesn't make the starches easily available to the enzymes... Seems like it should be fine without milling, though. I'm assuming the popcorn was a fully-soaked, soggy mess by time you were done mashing.

 

[Weezy]

Just wondering if maybe the "popped" structure doesn't make the starches easily available to the enzymes... Seems like it should be fine without milling, though. I'm assuming the popcorn was a fully-soaked, soggy mess by time you were done mashing.

That's what I was thinking. Also the corn is now cooked when popped. Maybe starches were converted or just can't be extracted practically?

 

[jtratcliff]

This page talks about how popping gelatinizes the starches but also mentions protein polymers which made me think that maybe the starches are somehow shielded by or bound to the proteins.

So may be a lower temperature protein rest (with different enzymes, most likely) could be required to free the starches so the amylase can get to them?

Dunno... just spitballing.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is this the amylase enzyme you used? That would explain why it failed so miserably to produce sugars.

 

[fofusak]

Is this the amylase enzyme you used? That would explain why it failed so miserably to produce sugars.

It seems like it is, however when I bought it, I found a resource in walmart.
The description contains "Allows fermentation of any starch by breaking up the molecule chains so that its not starch it is sugar"

Still, mentioning only 1,4 links. I see why I couldn't get any sweet sugars out.

However there's still the starch issue with the iodine. Maybe I couldn't get (almost) any fermentable sugars out of it. But the starches should have been degraded and not shown up in the iodine test.

This page talks about how popping gelatinizes the starches but also mentions protein polymers which made me think that maybe the starches are somehow shielded by or bound to the proteins.

So may be a lower temperature protein rest (with different enzymes, most likely) could be required to free the starches so the amylase can get to them?

That could explain it. I wanted to find something and post back about it. That will take a long time. So for now I will only say that I'm looking into it

Just wondering if maybe the "popped" structure doesn't make the starches easily available to the enzymes... Seems like it should be fine without milling, though. I'm assuming the popcorn was a fully-soaked, soggy mess by time you were done mashing.

Yes, my popcorn was a soggy mess. Surprisingly it took a lot less space and water than I expected. It takes less than twice as much as a barley mash.
I'll be looking on why maybe the starches are not available.

Thanks!