Brewing Weizens: Where's The Banana?

[outdrosman]

I am going for something like Ayinger Beau-Weiss. Some tartness and a hint of bubblegum and banana. What I keep brewing is more like an under hopped American wheat.

My recipe is about 60-40 great western white wheat and great western Pilsen and 1 oz of a low alpha noble hop. I mash at 152 and on my most recent attempt decoction mash to 170. I don't do anything that with my water, I just get it from my outside tap through a drinking water hose.

I use White Labs hefeweizen ale yeast. On my first attempt I fermented at 64F for 15 days then kegged. That was actually a dunkelweizen but same idea as far as what I was looking for from the yeast. I detected banana aroma during fermentation but none after it was kegged up and serving.

My second attempt was the regular hefeweizen but this time I fermented at 69F for 8 days. I had stable gravity readings so I kegged. Once again I had banana aroma during fermentation but little if any in the glass.

If anybody with more experience with hefeweizens can help me troubleshoot my recipe I would really appreciate it!

My next plan is to get reverse osmosis water, build the proper water profile and ferment a little warmer.

 

[thehaze]

Not all Hefe yeast produce a lot of banana. Banana is usually obtained by fermenting at a much higher temperature.

3056 will give banana and the same will Danstar Munich Classic ( NOT the normal Wheat yeast ) if fermented high.

I know there is a german shop that sells liquid hefe strains, which are pretty good: http://www.braupartner.de/shop/fuer_10-25_Liter.chtml

 

[outdrosman]

Not all Hefe yeast produce a lot of banana. Banana is usually obtained by fermenting at a much higher temperature.

3056 will give banana and the same will Danstar Munich Classic ( NOT the normal Wheat yeast ) if fermented high.

I know there is a german shop that sells liquid hefe strains, which are pretty good: http://www.braupartner.de/shop/fuer_10-25_Liter.chtml

That's awesome, thanks for that! I will have to check some of those out in the future. I had heard that WLP 300 was pretty strong in the banana though. Still I am excited to try their Ayinger strain.

 

[thehaze]

You could try to read this : http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/21/fermentation-temperature-pt-9-wlp300-hefeweizen-ale-yeast/

and this. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wlp300-hefeweizen-too-clean.339881/

Also, I forgot to mention that hefe yeast, just like some belgian strains, will benefit from underpitching. Stressing the yeast will force it to produce more esters.

A lower fermentation temp. usually accentuates he clove and pepper flavours.

 

[tomakana]

For my first stab at an extract Wheat, I used Mangrove Jack Bavarian Yeast M20 - when I took my first gravity reading after bubbles slowed down, you'd have thought I mashed bananas in the fermenter. Just drank my first bottle, which has been conditioning for about 10 days, and there's pretty distinct banana aroma and flavor. Pitched 1/2 of a 10g pack of dry yeast into a 2 gallon batch. I'm new to brewing, but based on this first bottle, I'm pretty happy with how this one came out.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Have a look at this...

http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[Smellyglove]

You're experiencing the same I did about 10 batches ago. First, 3068 is said to give a more stable banana than 300, if that's the one of the WL "Hefeweizen" yeasts you used.

I've only used 380 in my Hefeweizen-adventure. After some more brewing and testing/failing/understanding, I'd say that you must bottle carb them after like 6-8 days, and carb them in about 22-24C. That will give you tonnes of ethyl acetate and isoamyl acetate. It you get to much ethyl, then just let the beer sit at 10C for a week, and it will be nice. top cropping the yeast will also give you some more esters on the second round. I pitch about 35ml of top cropped slurry into 14L of wort.

380 is a "non-banana" strain, but I've been able to manipulate it to give tonnes of esters. High bottle carbonation temp is one of these tricks.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I've never had any luck with 300. Everything comes out like a stale widmer or pyramid (which are crap even when fresh), basically an Americanized wheat beer. If you want banana, the answer is simple. 3068 and ferment it HOT. I mean like mid 80's. Pitch around 70. Immediately after you see activity, raise it. You might also consider a Wit yeast. In many regions of Europe, the yeasts are common to wheats and wits.

Four lessons I learned in my past attempts to really dial in my wheats and make them more "European" and less "American" are (1) add in 4 to 6 ounces of oats or carapils per 5 gallons [don't laugh, it really makes a difference]. (2) don't be afraid to bump the mash temp to 153 or 154. and (3) Stick with more floral and less skanky-dirt hops. This will let more of the grain and yeast character shine through. Saaz and Citra (or closely similar variations) are my go to's for wheats. Finally (4) Use a good flavor, hearty and quality base malt. A nice german or Belgian pilsner. Ive even used maris otter on occasion. No cheapo domestic 2-row.

The current trend/fad/myth of cooler fermentation temps should not be applied for all yeasts and styles. [puts on his body armor and prepares to be pummeled by the masses]

 

[Smellyglove]

I've never had any luck with 300. Everything comes out like a stale widmer or pyramid (which are crap even when fresh). If you want banana, the answer is simple. 3068 and ferment it HOT. I mean like mid 80's. Pitch around 70. Immediately after you see activity, raise it.

The current trend/fad/myth of cooler fermentation temps should not be applied for all yeasts and styles. [puts on his body armor and prepares to be pummeled by the masses]

I think you can take off that outfit of yours

It's well known that higher fermentation temps gives more esters. But do you want a banana-bomb, or a more proper balanced Hefeweizen?

My tip to OP would be get 3068, and roll it at about 20C. Adjust for less or more esters the next round. 17-18C gives you a pretty balanced Hefe.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Below 15 or 16 IBU (and depending on the type of hops), i'll concede that you might be able lower the 3068 to the high 70's I err to the side of caution because another trendy fad is using way too much hops. 3068 will always throw some noticeable clove but the banana is soft. Add in higher IBU's (or skanky hops) and it's hard for any banana to punch through, perceptually speaking. However, everything being said, my caviat is always that everyone's taste buds and sniffer is different.

 

[Sadu]

I think people look for different things in hefes. I link a nice balance and get that by fermenting the yeast cool + step mash for the clove, and stress the yeast for banana. You can get away with way less yeast than you might think, I pitch about 25% of what I'd normally use for another 1.050 ale. Don't aerate other than what naturally happens when transferring. I ended up going to 1 gallon brews until I was happy with the results.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

That's an excellent point. I also step mash wheats and wits (and some saisons). It definitely changes the grand scheme of things.

Some day I would like to do my own test of stressing the yeast and get some baseline of the difference. Maybe split a batch into two fermenters. One with a fatty starter, one under-pitched.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One oft-quoted rule of thumb for wheats is the "30C rule", so eg pitching at 9C and fermenting at 21C.

And under-pitch and under-aerate obviously.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been afraid to even try brewing a hefe because my ferm temp control is not great and I'm afraid it will come out like the VAST majority of American Hefes... thin, tart, peppery (phenolic?), and lacking any significant banana or clove. Usually undercarbed too but that's easier to fix.

I LOVE a FRESH Weihenstephaner Hefe (hit or miss .. usually miss. It's often terrible presumably from variable conditions due to importation ... I don't risk buying it anymore). Ayinger Brauweisse is consistently good. and Hofbrau Hefe is pretty solid.

The style is intimidating because it seems like everything needs to go right to get decent flavor (and be super fresh).

 

[thehaze]

Hefes are to be consumed fresh. I have had hefe beers that tasted off both in the bottle and kegs, from local pubs. But hefe, just like any other style, can be brewed to emphasize a certain variety of aromas and flavours, usually incorporating all the " big/important " traits, like the clove and banana ( mostly clove and banana, as some strains will also show some other kind of fruits and flavours ), cloudiness, full on wheat/tartish wheat taste, etc.

But I would agree that, this specific style may be a tad more challenging to brew to your own taste, than say a hoppy Pale ale. And this especially when your tastes are already set on a specific aroma and flavour, you get from your usual/casual, preferred hefe beers.

It takes some experimenting with different grain bills, yeast, water profile, etc. to get it, to match your already well-established " opinion " on what a tasty hefe should be. I know it sounds very general and wrong, but it is not that kind of style, where you can change the hops or use a bit more or less, to make it better next time. ( *** provided we can agree that a fairly decent pale ale can be brewed on a homebrew level )

 

[outdrosman]

I see what you mean thehaze. I do like the hefe that I ended up with, it's just not the idea I had in mind from drinking ayinger and weihenstephaner. I think I am starting to pick up some of the bubblegum esters in my batch and there is a solid clove aroma there too.

Thanks everyone for all the advise. I will definitely try underpitching next time. I used some yeast slurry on this one so I don't know how much yeast I used but I have a feeling it was a healthy pitch.

 

[Smellyglove]

One oft-quoted rule of thumb for wheats is the "30C rule", so eg pitching at 9C and fermenting at 21C.

And under-pitch and under-aerate obviously.

That rule is actually very old, like before temp control, afaik it has just survived into modern days. There is no need to do this with temp-control.