Brewing numbers way off

[TheHairyHop]

Hey everyone, I just had a brew day where my numbers just didn't do it. I was supposed to hit a pre-boil OG of 1.062 with a mash efficiency of 70%, but I hit 1.048. I have a cooler with a braid. Dump the braid?

Using distilled water and 1g/gal of CaCl, I was supposed to hit a mash pH of 5.41, yet I was finding 5.20 when lautering. It was a recipe of 80:20 Belgian pale to malted oat. I find this discrepancy inexpiable.

Any thoughts? Are the two problems related?

 

[bucketnative]

#1 contributor to efficiency is grain crush. #2 contributor is grain crush.

Braid plays no part. It's just there to keep the grains out of the line. The sugars should be dissolved in the liquid. Perhaps post your exact mashing process.

 

[GnenieGone]

Hey everyone, I just had a brew day where my numbers just didn't do it. I was supposed to hit a pre-boil OG of 1.062 with a mash efficiency of 70%, but I hit 1.048. I have a cooler with a braid. Dump the braid?

Using distilled water and 1g/gal of CaCl, I was supposed to hit a mash pH of 5.41, yet I was finding 5.20 when lautering. It was a recipe of 80:20 Belgian pale to malted oat. I find this discrepancy inexpiable.

Any thoughts? Are the two problems related?

Can you post grain/water details? I've read all over the place about people getting 70-80%, but after brewing for 2.5yrs w/wo circulation pumps, changing mash times, stirring every 10mins to no stirring, different grain crushes and different chemistry's, about 63-65% is my upper norm. Periodically I'll go through the roof at 75%, but never figured out how or why. Also, periodically, have less then 60% on "normal" brews (with higher gravity beers I always have less then 60%).

Also, take gravity readings every 10min or so during mash for future records. Oh, I've noticed my pre-boil gravity is always lower then expected according to Beersmith2, but OG seems to be in the ballpark most the time. Haven't figured this one out either, but just run with it..

 

[kh54s10]

Agreed that the usual problem for low efficiency is grain crush. The other big one is having a recipe designed for a certain volume and ending up with more.

I haven't yet started tracking pH. But, I don't think your problem lies there.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I do batch sparge. It was 3 gallons for target temp of 156 and 2.25 gallons for sparge at 170. It was a 3.5 gallon batch

I guess I'm more concerned over that missed pH. With the use of only pale/adjuncts and distilled water with CaCl additions, I don't see a reason as to why I would have missed it by that much

 

[madcowbrewing]

For the most part of a decade, I never tested my PH....and still rarely do. PH in my opinion has nothing to do with your effeciancy. It does have to do with grain crush and run off. If you have a good crush and good grain bed set during run off, you should be ok on efficiency.

 

[stratslinger]

Another thing to watch out for is sampling problems (which it sounds like PianoMan may be seeing!).

Whether you batch sparge (I'm assuming 2 "batches") or fly sparge, the wort that enters your kettle at the end of the process has a significantly lower gravity than the stuff that enters your kettle at the start, and if you don't mix the filled kettle well enough before taking that sample, you're going to pull off more of the later wort than the earlier (read up a bit on wort stratification if you're really interested in how this happens!). The boil can tend to even this out, since convection currents do a pretty effective job of mixing things up, which is why sometimes your pre-boil gravity will seem low but your post-boil will be in the right neighborhood.

Also, how confident are you that you're measuring volumes correctly? Do your best to find a vessel of a known good volume (I use a 2-qt pitcher) and use that to calibrate and mark all your vessels. You may be surprised at how far off a lot of the factory-provided volume markers actually are!

 

[TheHairyHop]

All good points. I did the markings on my vessel in half gallons and tried to pull from the kettle after giving it a good stir. I'll keep both more in mind next time. Markings on the inside of the kettle would probably be more accurate.

As to why I care about pH. I care about the number as well as hitting a number consistently. If I'm off this one time, is it an inherent bias in my system, or did I do a one-off error? I'd like to know. I've also heard from brew masters that pH does matter, but it may be a case of what matters to them doesn't matter to me. Regardless, I'd like to be able to reliably hit a desired number.

 

[brewcat]

What was the amount of water you used for pound of grain?

 

[TheHairyHop]

What was the amount of water you used for pound of grain?

1.25 qt/lb

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

Did you add the CaCl to both the mash and sparge water and did whichever calculator you used take that into account?

 

[kh54s10]

I don't really know about distilled water, mineral additions and pH, but as I understand it the distilling strips the water of all minerals and you have only added one back.....

I go back, that you have more problems with efficiency and possibly volumes than you do with pH.

Solve the efficiency problems with a proper crush and obtaining the right volumes and your pH problem (if you are correcting with additions properly) might just disappear.

And back to the original question I don't think there is any relation in your problems one to the other, and the braid has nothing to do with it.

 

[Jaxmickey]

+ 1 for grain crush. My LBS said that the factory recommended setting is .045, but I was getting 50%-60%eff....after spending more money on DME to get my PB gravity up, I asked on a whim if they could crush at .035. They said sure, and my problems were solved. also, make sure you are stirring up the wart in the kettle so you get a "blended" sample to measure.

Hope this helps!

Best wishes.

 

[jddevinn]

Like others have said, your crush plays a big part here.

Are you volumes accurate? What are you using to measure?

Stratification of wort makes the preboil gravity hard to read. What was the post boil? Was it correct? Did you let the sample cool to the hydrometer/refactometer range?

 

[h22lude]

Hey everyone, I just had a brew day where my numbers just didn't do it. I was supposed to hit a pre-boil OG of 1.062 with a mash efficiency of 70%, but I hit 1.048. I have a cooler with a braid. Dump the braid?

Using distilled water and 1g/gal of CaCl, I was supposed to hit a mash pH of 5.41, yet I was finding 5.20 when lautering. It was a recipe of 80:20 Belgian pale to malted oat. I find this discrepancy inexpiable.

Any thoughts? Are the two problems related?

While 5.4 is what most home brewers try to average, 5.2 isn't bad. Going lower than that may be a slight issue. I'd be more worried about going over 5.8.

If you could, post the recipe so we can see what is going on.

For the most part of a decade, I never tested my PH....and still rarely do. PH in my opinion has nothing to do with your effeciancy. It does have to do with grain crush and run off. If you have a good crush and good grain bed set during run off, you should be ok on efficiency.

Mash pH is a big efficiency factor. I don't believe that is the issue here but a mash pH within brewing range lends to better enzyme activity which adds in better conversion.

I think the issue here will be mostly crush. Get that right and you will be much closer. Another issue that I think lowers efficiency is just not knowing your equipment. It took me a few brews to get my equipment dialed in BeerSmith. Now I'm off at the most 2 points for gravity and my volumes are off no more than .1 gallons (1.5 cups).

 

[TheHairyHop]

While 5.4 is what most home brewers try to average, 5.2 isn't bad. Going lower than that may be a slight issue. I'd be more worried about going over 5.8.

If you could, post the recipe so we can see what is going on.



Mash pH is a big efficiency factor. I don't believe that is the issue here but a mash pH within brewing range lends to better enzyme activity which adds in better conversion.

I think the issue here will be mostly crush. Get that right and you will be much closer. Another issue that I think lowers efficiency is just not knowing your equipment. It took me a few brews to get my equipment dialed in BeerSmith. Now I'm off at the most 2 points for gravity and my volumes are off no more than .1 gallons (1.5 cups).

yea, I figured that pH could effect enzyme activity, but I couldn't remember actually reading it anywhere. It just bothers me that such a simple recipe was so far off of bru'n water's estimate.

7.68# belgian pale
1.90# malted oats

 

[kh54s10]

I still would be far more concerned with (.014) preboil gravity than the mash pH. I wonder if you solved the first whether the second would solve itself???

 

[h22lude]

yea, I figured that pH could effect enzyme activity, but I couldn't remember actually reading it anywhere. It just bothers me that such a simple recipe was so far off of bru'n water's estimate.

7.68# belgian pale
1.90# malted oats

What size batch, mash volume and sparge volume?

Remember, Bru'n Water is just an estimate. I find that sometimes it is spot on and other time is can be .2 off like you found. Not just Bru'n either. Brewers Friend is the same way. If it is spot on, great. If not, take notes and fix it for the next time you brew it.

I still would be far more concerned with (.014) preboil gravity than the mash pH. I wonder if you solved the first whether the second would solve itself???

I agree. Mash pH, while important, isn't a factor here. I think the .014 difference is crush. Being 5.2 instead of 5.4 isn't that big of an issue.

 

[TheHairyHop]

What size batch, mash volume and sparge volume?

Remember, Bru'n Water is just an estimate. I find that sometimes it is spot on and other time is can be .2 off like you found. Not just Bru'n either. Brewers Friend is the same way. If it is spot on, great. If not, take notes and fix it for the next time you brew it.



I agree. Mash pH, while important, isn't a factor here. I think the .014 difference is crush. Being 5.2 instead of 5.4 isn't that big of an issue.

it's in the other posts, but to summarize

3.5 gal batch
3 gallon mash (1.2 qt/gal)
2.16 gallon batch sparge

may be a typo, but I don't think so.

probably the crush. the kicker is that I have a mill, but I haven't got a drill, hopper, stand set up for it yet. should do that asap, I guess

 

[55x11]

Hey everyone, I just had a brew day where my numbers just didn't do it. I was supposed to hit a pre-boil OG of 1.062 with a mash efficiency of 70%, but I hit 1.048. I have a cooler with a braid. Dump the braid?

Using distilled water and 1g/gal of CaCl, I was supposed to hit a mash pH of 5.41, yet I was finding 5.20 when lautering. It was a recipe of 80:20 Belgian pale to malted oat. I find this discrepancy inexpiable.

Any thoughts? Are the two problems related?

have you routinely hit 70% efficiency with this setup?
1.048 is for 3.5G finishing volume I would assume (or is it for pre-boil volume which should be more like 4G?). How well do you know your volumes? Did you finish with *precisely* 3.5G and nothing else left (it makes much bigger difference for smaller batches).
What was the mash temperature, duration? Was any liquid left behind in the mash tun or the kettle?

I don't think your pH or your braid is the problem, FYI.