Brewing a sour-like beer without bugs

[jcorn]

I am wanting to make a beer that is somewhat close to the flavor and sourness of Rodenbach Grand Cru. I do not want to introduce a bug strain into my equipment but am looking to go the route of adding a bottle of lactic acid into my fermenter and/or during kegging. I am hoping to be drinking this within a month or two. I understand that a true flanders red or sour beer for that matter is not cloned by any means doing this form of acid addition. I just enjoy easy brewing and decent beer.

My thought is to use a recipe for a normal flanders red ale and skip the sour strain steps and use my safale 04 or 05 and later add lactic acid. My other thought was to use an Irish Red ale recipe and add the lactic acid afterwards.

Not so ump to par with acids and particularly lactic. Will adding lactic acid hurt my plastic brewing equipment like a lacto infection or other sour strain do? Will I need to worry about thoroughly cleaning a keg after drinking a beer that had lactic acid in it? Just a little confused on if adding lactic acid delivers any type of infection or if it just imitates the flavor of one.

 

[maffew222]

The acid isn't what causes problems, it's the acid producing bacteria that does. So other than general cleaning/sanitizing practices that you would need for clean-beer brewing, you don't have to worry about it doing anything "funny".

To me, you might be able to fake it, but I would suggest testing small portions of the batch. Seems like the base beer might be a nice amber/red without the acid and could go really wrong. To me, the character of Rodenbach comes as much from being on wood than the acids (and because of the oxygen involved, much of it is acetic acid).

 

[jcorn]

I definitely agree that the oak flavor is pretty amazing in that Rodenbach. Is there are a way to imitate or get oak into my beer within a month or two? I wouldn't think aging oak chunks in the bucket would do much in such short of time.

An amber or red would probably be better and closer to what I want to achieve. Good idea

 

[Oldsock]

To me it's like asking if you can brewing Pliny the Elder without any hops (just a bit of pre-isomerized alpha acid in the keg). Sure you’ll get bitterness without real hops, but you’ll be missing out on all the other interesting flavors and aromas that hops provide. Similarly Rodenbach’s flavor comes from a long fermentation in oak barrels (well foeders technically) with several strains of yeast and bacteria. Adding lactic acid will add acidity, but none of the other flavors. If you’re OK with that, go for it!

If you can though, make an extra gallon of the batch and put it in a one gallon jug with some Wyeast Roeselare. Give it a year. During that time, hang onto any old plastic gear that you’re replacing, and use that to bottle the gallon of microbe-y sour beer.

Best of luck!

 

[grathan]

I've been working on a sixer of Grand Cru this week. It isn't as I remembered it when I first tried it last summer. It was kind of bland in fact. I think the acid addition is a great idea (not because of equipment, mainly because of turnaround time), but why not just add it to a glass of beer to try it out instead of adding it to the whole batch at once maybe even a touch of acetic acid?

 

[jcorn]

To me it's like asking if you can brewing Pliny the Elder without any hops (just a bit of pre-isomerized alpha acid in the keg). Sure you’ll get bitterness without real hops, but you’ll be missing out on all the other interesting flavors and aromas that hops provide. Similarly Rodenbach’s flavor comes from a long fermentation in oak barrels (well foeders technically) with several strains of yeast and bacteria. Adding lactic acid will add acidity, but none of the other flavors. If you’re OK with that, go for it!

If you can though, make an extra gallon of the batch and put it in a one gallon jug with some Wyeast Roeselare. Give it a year. During that time, hang onto any old plastic gear that you’re replacing, and use that to bottle the gallon of microbe-y sour beer.

Best of luck!

I totally understand it does sound like a pretty lazy and is absolutely not the proper way to brew it. I just want to try a simple form to get a somewhat tart or sour beer that I can enjoy brew/drink quicker. I know it won't be near the same. Im going to try to steal a gallon like you suggested and do a proper sour. I only have one sour brewed under my belt. It was an orange dreamsicle cream ale soured with Lacto and brett

 

[jcorn]

I've been working on a sixer of Grand Cru this week. It isn't as I remembered it when I first tried it last summer. It was kind of bland in fact. I think the acid addition is a great idea (not because of equipment, mainly because of turnaround time), but why not just add it to a glass of beer to try it out instead of adding it to the whole batch at once maybe even a touch of acetic acid?

You definitely could add the acid to a glass of the beer. I would feel more comfortable doing it that way in fact, but I do wonder if it would make it more balanced and more fitting to be present and involved in more of the process.

I have read that acetic acid is present mostly in flanders red so maybe a lactic and acetic acid blend would be quite enjoyable in an amber. Now I am just trying to decide whether to brew the base beer as an amber or red ale. A flanders red base would be something like all munich base or all vienna with small traces of wheat, caramunich, abbey malt. That is another option

 

[Wahoo]

Paul Zocco makes a beer with lactic acid and tart cherry juice which is about as close as I think you'll get, although no one would mistake it for Rodenbach Grand Cru. He owns Zok's homebrew supply, you may want to see if he has a kit.

 

[geoffey]

You could also try using a higher amount of acid malt to make a quick sour. It won't have anything near the depth of character as a sour made with Brett, lacto and/or pedio though. This technique was included in the American Sours book I believe.

Or you could do a sour mash as well. That's another technique in that book which works for a quick sour

And absolutely add some oak cubes to that after primary fermentation to get some oak flavor.

I don't think you'll end up with anything near what your target is, but that's up to you!

 

[jcorn]

Paul Zocco makes a beer with lactic acid and tart cherry juice which is about as close as I think you'll get, although no one would mistake it for Rodenbach Grand Cru. He owns Zok's homebrew supply, you may want to see if he has a kit.

I googled it and found his website. He didnt have a kit for it though unfortunately.

 

[jcorn]

You could also try using a higher amount of acid malt to make a quick sour. It won't have anything near the depth of character as a sour made with Brett, lacto and/or pedio though. This technique was included in the American Sours book I believe.

Or you could do a sour mash as well. That's another technique in that book which works for a quick sour

And absolutely add some oak cubes to that after primary fermentation to get some oak flavor.

I don't think you'll end up with anything near what your target is, but that's up to you!

Its crossed my mind to do acidulated malt but I think I am going to do an extract beer for this with Munich malt syrup for the base. I doubt you could steep the acid malt?

 

[ross_daly]

My suggestion is to buy some lactic acid from your lhbs and dose a finished beer with it. If you like it, work on your concentrations and then you can dose a batch. From what I've read it will taste pretty one-dimensional, but I have also been thinking about trying it.

 

[geoffey]

I don't see why you couldn't steep the acid malt. Although I've never heard of it being done. I'd have no idea where to start with how much to steep though. You'd likely need to do some experimentation.

 

[joerose]

Fwiw, I used tamarind paste in a saison that added a good amount of sourness in a saison I brewed. It did the trick for just adding sour with no discernible flavor.

 

[jcorn]

I am unfamiliar with tamarind paste.

I am gonna give the lactic a shot. I have a few different beers on draft now to try it out on (hefe, dark belgian strong, different wheats, El Diablo ipa)

 

[jcorn]

I experimented with lactic acid, white vinegar and balsamic vinegar in a 12 ounce beer. I noticed that lactic acid on its own at 1ml to 12oz is wonderful. You get a nice tart bite but it is clean and not overwhelming. This is all done in a Belgian wheat beer. The lactic acid made an orange peel I placed in my cup REALLY amazing in zesty orange tartness. Adding white vinegar or balsamic at 1ml to 12oz. almost seemed to take away from the total sourness. It made me want to add more lactic.

I tried the 1ml lactic and 1ml balsamic in a dark belgian ale I made and it was great! The balsamic seems to have hardly any place in a lighter beer. Lactic alone did it for me most in the normal wheat beer.

 

[grathan]

I wonder what the ph was of 1ml lactic in 12oz of beer...

 

[Evan_L]

Zok is a pretty cool guy, always willing to help. I'm sure if you sent him an email and asked, he would give you the recipe.

 

[jcorn]

I wonder what the ph was of 1ml lactic in 12oz of beer...

I'm not sure what the pH would be. I can try and use my pH meter on it later. It makes these wheats just incredible! I am going to try it in a wit I just made. It's incredible how it brightens fruit and citrus flavors.

I will try and email Zok

 

[jcorn]

I'm not sure what the pH would be. I can try and use my pH meter on it later. It makes these wheats just incredible! I am going to try it in a wit I just made. It's incredible how it brightens fruit and citrus flavors.

I will try and email Zok

 

[BreezyBrew]

Certain yeast profiles will give you a tart finish, namely, US-04 and Notty if they are fermented higher than 65 degrees.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Zok is a pretty cool guy, always willing to help. I'm sure if you sent him an email and asked, he would give you the recipe.

I agree. I don't live in the area, and even further away now. But I did shop there once and Zok is one of the best LHBS owners in business. Just email him and has his advice on a recipe.

 

[robfar]

If your only concern is keeping your brewery bug-free, kettle souring might interest you. Take unfermented, lightly hopped (<20 IBU) wort and hold it at 100-120 F with a grain bag of pilsner malt hanging in it. Make an effort to keep air out. After a couple of days start tasting and measuring pH. I like pH=3.6 for a nice tartness. Boil the wort (no bugs!) add hops or whatever. I make a great sour cherry ale this way. The natural lacto on the malt is L. brevis and seems to give a nicer tartness than acid alone. Good luck.

 

[jcorn]

Certain yeast profiles will give you a tart finish, namely, US-04 and Notty if they are fermented higher than 65 degrees.

I use 04 alot (around 70) and have really never noticed any tartness.

 

[jcorn]

Sorry this homebrewtalk app never let's me quote and reply for some reason. Everytime I try it says error sending.

I have never noticed safale 04 giving tartness. I ferment around 70.

Robfar, I love this kettle souring idea! Or maybe even going back to the acid malt steeping method.

 

[robfar]

Robfar, I love this kettle souring idea! Or maybe even going back to the acid malt steeping method.

It's a good method, but does take some fussing over. Like I said, pH=3.6 gives a good tartness when I combine it with tart cherries, but US-05 can still ferment it. If you go too acidic, you'll have trouble fermenting it.

 

[jcorn]

I think I saw somewhere on here about people using cherry juice or concentrate maybe to mimic sours too

 

[jcorn]

I emailed Zok and he was kind enough to respond to my email. In 5 gallons of red ale he uses 5oz of lactic acid and 16 oz of tart cherry juice. Very nice guy!