Brewery Vivant Zaison Imperial saison?

[Saxomophone]

Anyone know if there is a clone recipe out there of this one? They list it as an imperial saison on their website since it weighs in at 9% ABV. I'd really like to give brewing a double saison a try but haven't found any all-grain recipes.

Any thoughts? Anyone have a good recipe for a high gravity saison?

 

[kiari_dogo]

Lets make this thread stay alive. Zaison is one of my favorite summer beers. Lets do some research.

 

[Veedo]

I just have to say that vivant makes some truly kick ass beers.

 

[sweetcell]

have you tried contacting the brewery, and asking for a recipe or hints? some breweries are happy to share.

 

[sweetcell]

also, just came across this:


Zaison Imperial Saison Ale
January 1, 2013
Reviewers:Lew Bryson - Stephen Beaumont

Zaison Imperial Saison Ale

Brewery Vivant

Grand Rapids, MI

This beer was the brainchild of our owner Jason Spaulding; a unique high-gravity Saison that maintains a sneaky, easy drinking quality that belies its alcohol content. Spiced with Tellicherry black peppercorn and Spanish orange peel, with our house Belgian yeast strain.

ABV: 9.0

ABW: 7.2

SRM: 5.17

IBU: 28.4

ORIGINAL GRAVITY: 1077

AVAILABLE: MI

from http://allaboutbeer.com/review/zaison-imperial-saison-ale/

OG=1.077 and 9.0%abv implies a FG of 1.009. there, now you have a few points to start building your recipe with. i've never had this beer before, but if someone sends me some i'll happily drink and let you know how i would start cloning it

1.009 is a bit on the high side for a saison, even for one this big. tells me they're not using 3711!

 

[kiari_dogo]

Alright - your post has got me pumped to give this a rough go of it. Please give me feedback. Here's what I got so far:

Zaison Clone
All-Grain

Targets:
------------
Size: 5 gallons
Efficiency: 70%
SG Target: 1.077
FG Target: 1.009
ABV: ~9%
IBU: ~30
Color: 5.7

Process:
------------
Mash(min): 60
Mash Temp (F): ~149
Boil (min): 90
Fermentation: 1 month (primary) + 2 weeks (secondary)

Ingredients:
------------
Amount - Item - (TIME) - % or IBU
13.5 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel 84.4 %
1.50 lb Munich (Light) 9.4 %
1.00 lb CaraPils 6.2%
0.50 oz Magnum [13.00%] (90 min) 19 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [6.50%] (20 min) 10 IBU
0.70 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (15 min)
2.00 oz Tellicherry Pepper Crushed (10 min)
0.25 oz Cascade [6.50%] (10 min) 2 IBU
WLP565 - White Labs Belgian Saison I

Notes:
------------
- Gonna have to ferment this sucker in the high temps in order to push the yeast.
- Mash temp has got to be pretty low to get the dryness.
- OG and IBU info from: http://allaboutbeer.com/review/zaison-imperial-saison-ale/
- WLP565 will help with overall spicy, peppery flavor.
- Tellicherry and Orange Peel use from Vivant: http://breweryvivant.com/index.php/the-beer/packaged-beer/zaison/
- I know it's non-traditional BUT was going with Cascade only for ease and to achieve the slight fruitiness that comes with the pepper taste in Zaison. This could be coming from the yeast though. Sterling hops could be an option.
- Have reached out to Vivant but wanted to give it a try. Haven't heard back from them yet.

 

[sweetcell]

a few thoughts (again, i haven't tried this beer so these are all guesses)

- why secondary? no real need, as far as i can tell

- a pound of carapils seems like a lot. i'm not sure how traditional this brewery is but usually saisons don't have crystal in them.

- i doubt that 3724 is the right yeast. few commercial breweries use it, they can't afford to wait all that time and dedicate the effort required to get it to finish. as i mentioned previously, given that OG it's probably not 3711. maybe a white labs strain like Saison II?

- 2 oz of crushed pepper is certainly too much. saison yeasts can provide plenty of pepper phenolics on their own. i'd start with 1/2 an oz.

- other than fruitiness (which can come from other sources, like the yeast), are there any other hop characteristics coming through in this beer? i'm just wondering if there all any late hops at all.

 

[kiari_dogo]

Thanks for the feedback. First recipe posted on here and first time actually making my own clone recipe.

- Yeah, no need for a secondary. I just tend to use them occasionally to open up a bucket.

- Brewery Vivant is not particularly traditional. Not particularly knowledgeable on the ins and out of traditional styles, however, their Big Red Coq, a red French Saison (I think they use French Saison yeast for this) with massive Citra mango flavor is not very traditional I don't think...

- I don't get a lot of hop characteristics although I haven't had the beer in 6 months, so I don't remember very well.

- I would refer to the allaboutbeer reviews for good tasting notes:

"A nose of oranges and pepper, and sweet, yeasty dough (like a Danish). Wham! A mildly sweet mouthful that springs open like a time-elapsed daisy with razored-orange edges and a small core of wet, fresh pepper; very dynamic beer. The orange dominates the finish, big, lush, but not as sweet as the opener … and the pepper returns at the end."

"Outside the mildly barnyardy appeal of the aroma, there are softly tart notes of lemon and gooseberry. The body begins with citrus fruit salad leading to a fruity-spicy and lightly floral body, with palate-adjusting tartness turning more bitter by the tingling finish."

The second quote really diminishes the peppery-ness of the beer.

- For dry hops, maybe something earthy for "mildly barnyard appeal." Thoughts?

 

[robwestcott]

Thanks for the feedback. First recipe posted on here and first time actually making my own clone recipe.

so how'd this one end up ? and was 2oz peppercorns enough ? cracked ? crushed ? @ 10min ?

 

[robwestcott]

Thanks for the feedback. First recipe posted on here and first time actually making my own clone recipe.

for anyone still checking in on this one... this week i checked in with brewery vivant re: their recommendation for the equivalent amount of tellicherry peppercorns for a 5gal batch. word back was 0.13oz ground and tossed in @ 20min. cheers to the brewery for taking the time to run the numbers and send along a reply.