Brew without sanitation

[dude1]

May sound like a stupid question, but still, read carefully and answer calmly.

Has anyone ever tried to brew without any sanitation solution, just by carefully cleaning and rinsing equipment with water?
I'm trying to reduce the amount of chemicals in my procedure.
I know you can rinse things that have been sanitized, so, no big deal, but still, my feeling is that, in a very clean environment (but not sanitized), rehydrated yeast will outnumber wild yeasts/bacteria so badly that they will leave them no chance to cause problems.

Corollary question: can unwanted wild yeast/bacteria "partially" or "slightly" affect the taste/quality of the finished beer or, if they are "beaten" early by the official yeast, they just totally lose the battle and become insignificant?

Thanks

 

[bucketnative]

You could probably do it.

As for wild yeast/bacteria "losing out", they may lose the battle of primary fermentation, but they may win the war with ferocious bottle bombs (if you're bottling), as they can continue to ferment sugars/carbohydrates that brewing yeast won't.

 

[LarMoeCur]

If I were trying to reduce the chemicals in my process and I had to rank chemicals from 1-10 (1 being must have 10 being waste of time). Sanitizer would be #1. You don't need PBW, BLC, BKF, whrilphoc.. ect...essentially you don't need any cleaner. You can manually scrub with hot water or use a little dish soap. Cleaning chemicals just make it a lot easier. Clarifiers are nice but not necessary. I've had great beers with chill haze. I think cold conditioning goes a long way in making clear beer.

Now Sanitation on the other hand is killing the bad guys that want to kill your beer! You cannot clean them away. Scrubbing with a sponge or scotch brite pad or carboy brush is leaving behind a ton of bacteria. Tap water is teeming with bacteria. Rinsing is leaving behind a ton of bacteria. Have you looked at your sink faucet's aerator? Would you dip that in your wort? No rinse sanitizer is made specifically to keep tap water bacteria out of your beer. I slightly worry about wild yeast and I completely worry about bacteria.

No the battle is never insignificant! This is were the term bottle bombs comes from! Wild yeast and bacteria will consume sugars that Saccharomyces strains cannot consume. Just because a beer is complete with primary fermentation does not mean it's not infected. Yes the infection is growing at a very slow rate because of the Saccharomyces is out consuming it. When Saccharomyces runs out of sugars there is still plenty left for the infection to consume and grow.

Sanitizing bottles and kegs is just as important as fermenters. A lot of new brewers get caught in the trap of primary fermentation is over, alcohol is present so I don't have to worry. I would say that bottle and keg infections are actually more common than fermentation infections.

Now, I will say I have never tried to brew without sanitizer. Mainly because I have a brewing budget and don't want to flush away a batch. I've read enough books about brewing to know they all say sanitation...sanitation...sanitation. If I had to give odds...I'd say 1 in 5 batches would be infected and once you got an infection without sanitizer those odds would greatly increase for every batch after the infection.

 

[Morrey]

If we did a poll among experienced brewers, I think we are likely to see that sanitation is the first process voted/considered most critical to consistent beer followed by fermentation temperature control.

Star-San is easily applied with a spritz bottle or as a dipping solution, so to brew without it is like playing Russian roulette with a revolver with half the chambers loaded. I feel it may be an unnecessary gamble considering the ease of application and hassle free no rinsing. I don't see Star-San as one of those chemicals that may cause issues or concerns especially if you are going to brew organically or try to be chemical free.

Back in the day, Belgium farmers produced farmhouse ales largely inoculated naturally with wild yeasts and other bacteria. We can be certain their beer was not very consistent, so at the very least you may not see repeatable results. Also we don't know how many batches they tossed due to infections...but maybe they drank it anyway.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm trying to reduce the amount of chemicals in my procedure.

Thanks

I'd just like to point out that by brewing beer you are using chemicals and biomechanical processes to create new slightly toxic chemicals and then drinking them intentionally for the poisonous effects and flavor chemicals...

I agree with the above though that sanitation is essential. I'm sure you can make successful batches without it, but it's only a matter of time before you get an infection and thats $20-$60 down the drain. As far as chemicals go, phosphoric acid is statistically harmless at the concentrations you are talking about in your beer (undetectable).

 

[Miraculix]

Interestingly enough, people who have lab experience seem to care less about sanitation as they know that you cannot get bug free anyway. Just use some soap and hot water and don't leave any visible dirt behind.

We have bugs in the air, on our hands, in our breath, they are everywhere at any time so just keep it reasonable. Except for the cases where, for example Brett or certain Saison yeasts have been used, I see no value in strong chemicals to kill all bugs because you simply cannot accomplish that anyway.

 

[TheMadKing]

Interestingly enough, people who have lab experience seem to care less about sanitation as they know that you cannot get bug free anyway. Just use some soap and hot water and don't leave any visible dirt behind.

We have bugs in the air, on our hands, in our breath, they are everywhere at any time so just keep it reasonable. Except for the cases where, for example Brett or certain Saison yeasts have been used, I see no value in strong chemicals to kill all bugs because you simply cannot accomplish that anyway.

My wife works in a microbiology lab and she disagrees. They are required to wear hair nets, gloves, lab coats, wash with strong chemical soaps, and sterilize everything in an autoclave. Yes that's extreme for homebrewing, but she knows better than anyone that sanitary practices go a long way.

The point of sanitizer is not to kill all bugs, it's to reduce the buggy population to the point where they are outcompeted by the yeast until the environment is hostile to them.

I agree that bleach is unnecessary, but weak phosphoric acid solution or idophor solution is harmless and good insurance against wasted money

 

[mnherky]

I've done my last 9 or 10 batches basically with out Star-San. I do BIAB in an electric kettle and ferment in an SS Brewtech Brew Bucket. While I'm mashing I clean the brew bucket with oxy clean and rinse it. Then when I get close to the end of my boil I put my IC in the boiling wort to clean it. As soon as I turn off the electricity I drain my kettle into the brew bucket, add the lid and let it sit for 5 to 10 minutes with the 190+ degree wort in it. Then I use the IC in the brew bucket to chill the wort, aerate, pitch the yeast, move it to my fermentation chamber and let it go. Haven't had any problems yet.

I do still rinse my kegs with start-san before I fill them.

 

[Miraculix]

My wife works in a microbiology lab and she disagrees. They are required to wear hair nets, gloves, lab coats, wash with strong chemical soaps, and sterilize everything in an autoclave. Yes that's extreme for homebrewing, but she knows better than anyone that sanitary practices go a long way.

The point of sanitizer is not to kill all bugs, it's to reduce the buggy population to the point where they are outcompeted by the yeast until the environment is hostile to them.

I agree that bleach is unnecessary, but weak phosphoric acid solution or idophor solution is harmless and good insurance against wasted money

I agree on the "why", just the "how" seems unnecessarily overcomplicated to me. We achieve this with a sponge, soap and hot water as well.

Did never sanitise anything, had never bad results.

 

[h22lude]

You can still sanitize without chemicals. Just use heat.

I've done my last 9 or 10 batches basically with out Star-San. I do BIAB in an electric kettle and ferment in an SS Brewtech Brew Bucket. While I'm mashing I clean the brew bucket with oxy clean and rinse it. Then when I get close to the end of my boil I put my IC in the boiling wort to clean it. As soon as I turn off the electricity I drain my kettle into the brew bucket, add the lid and let it sit for 5 to 10 minutes with the 190+ degree wort in it. Then I use the IC in the brew bucket to chill the wort, aerate, pitch the yeast, move it to my fermentation chamber and let it go. Haven't had any problems yet.

I do still rinse my kegs with start-san before I fill them.

And this is how you use heat to sanitize. Transfer your boiling wort into a SS fermentor, let it sit for a few minutes and then chill. I know some people may cringe at the HSA issues (if you believe in that) but it is definitely do-able. If you have a fermentor with a spigot, you can fill from the bottom with the lid on. Ii'm not sure but I think the steam from the boiling wort would sanitize the lid and anything above the wort level.

I wonder if you could fill a keg with boiling water to sanitize it.

 

[Devin]

Beer was being made long before anything like StarSan was invented. I imagine that they may have had issues occasionally with infections (probably how sours came to be), but it seems that the tradition of making beer still carried on. Give it a shot, see what happens. I imagine that you will make some beer in the end.

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree on the "why", just the "how" seems unnecessarily overcomplicated to me. We achieve this with a sponge, soap and hot water as well.

Did never sanitise anything, had never bad results.

you've been lucky, and that's fine if it works for you. I prefer a little cheap insurance.

https://lifehacker.com/cold-water-and-regular-soap-kills-germs-just-as-well-as-1488847107

I find that dipping something in a 5 gallon bucket of sanitizer briefly is far less trouble and less complicated than washing with a sponge and rinsing. Or for even more convenience, a spray bottle of sanitizer solution can be used. No rinsing, you can use it over and over, no risk of loss of head retention on your beer or off flavors.

The only think I ever use a sponge on is my kettle, and I just use water and a sponge to clean the gunk out. I briefly sanitize my fermentors and airlocks with star san, and the inside of my kegs, and anything that's going to touch my cooled wort. It really couldn't be simpler or easier. I would wager I put less effort into cleaning than you do simply because I don't have to scrub or rinse.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's really no reason to use sanitizer. All the professional and amateur brewers just haven't realize that if you wipe off your equipment and it looks clean then there's not much bacteria on it.

The FDA also is too dumb to realize that it's pointless to try to reduce bacterial contamination in foods because hey it's going to be there anyway. In fact refrigeration and cooking food is a waste of energy. Let the bacteria run wild I say.

P.S. Hand washing is for chumps. Just spit on them to wipe off any dirt. People survived all of history without soap. I'm sure they must not have got any infections.

 

[Miraculix]

you've been lucky, and that's fine if it works for you. I prefer a little cheap insurance.

https://lifehacker.com/cold-water-and-regular-soap-kills-germs-just-as-well-as-1488847107

I find that dipping something in a 5 gallon bucket of sanitizer briefly is far less trouble and less complicated than washing with a sponge and rinsing. Or for even more convenience, a spray bottle of sanitizer solution can be used. No rinsing, you can use it over and over, no risk of loss of head retention on your beer or off flavors.

The only think I ever use a sponge on is my kettle, and I just use water and a sponge to clean the gunk out. I briefly sanitize my fermentors and airlocks with star san, and the inside of my kegs, and anything that's going to touch my cooled wort. It really couldn't be simpler or easier. I would wager I put less effort into cleaning than you do simply because I don't have to scrub or rinse.

Exactly that's the problem, it might be easier but is less effective. When you don't scrub, you leave material behind, that material will hide gems from you sanitising products.

It doesn't work that way. You either scrub and then sanitise or you skip the later part. Skipping the first is not a good idea.

 

[TheMadKing]

Exactly that's the problem, it might be easier but is less effective. When you don't scrub, you leave material behind, that material will hide gems from you sanitising products.

It doesn't work that way. You either scrub and then sanitise or you skip the later part. Skipping the first is not a good idea.

Actually scrubbing especially on plastic can lead to material being trapped in microscratches, and scrubbers are more likely to harbor bacteria than my equipment. I disagree with you that scrubbing is at all necessary for brewing except on metal brew kettles.

I forgot to mention that I do an oxyclean soak of my fermentor after use, and I'll do it to my kegs every 5-6 uses. There's no material left behind and no scrubbing, it just rinses clean.

My equipment is spotless, scratch free, and sanitary.

 

[Miraculix]

Actually scrubbing especially on plastic can lead to material being trapped in microscratches, and scrubbers are more likely to harbor bacteria than my equipment. I disagree with you that scrubbing is at all necessary for brewing except on metal brew kettles.

I forgot to mention that I do an oxyclean soak of my fermentor after use, and I'll do it to my kegs every 5-6 uses. There's no material left behind and no scrubbing, it just rinses clean.

My equipment is spotless, scratch free, and sanitary.

Ok maybe we have a different definition of "scrubbing" in mind. In plastic I would assume that one acts accordingly and uses the soft side of the sponge and not steel wool

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok maybe we have a different definition of "scrubbing" in mind. In plastic I would assume that one acts accordingly and uses the soft side of the sponge and not steel wool

You do you bud

 

[madscientist451]

Has anyone ever tried to brew without any sanitation solution, just by carefully cleaning and rinsing equipment with water?
I'm trying to reduce the amount of chemicals in my procedure.

Corollary question: can unwanted wild yeast/bacteria "partially" or "slightly" affect the taste/quality of the finished beer or, if they are "beaten" early by the official yeast, they just totally lose the battle and become insignificant?

Thanks

#1 No never tried it, except sometimes I'll skip sanitizing a carboy and dump more wort/cider right on the yeast cake and not worry about it. I've done this many times without problems, but usually only one generation with beer. You mention carefully cleaning, then rinsing with water, what are you going to clean with? Going to use any detergent or cleaning product at all? Isn't that using chemicals?
If you are bottling, not using a sanitizer is going to cause problems.
If you are kegging, you can reduce using sanitizers by filling the keg up as soon as its empty, putting the C02 on it and keeping it cold. I've done this several times without any issues. You could probably go a long time doing that, but eventually, you'll probably build up something that will produce an off flavor.
So you CAN reduce the amount of sanitizer by not sanitizing the carboy/keg every time, but you should probably sanitize eventually.

#2 It depends what commercial yeast your are using, the amount of healthy yeast pitched and the heath and amount of the wild yeast culture, and what kind of beer you are brewing. If you are brewing a lager, you don't want any mixed culture flavors. In a real hoppy IPA or a roasty Imperial coffee stout you probably aren't going to notice it. If you are brewing a flanders red sour or other mixed fermentation, it won't really matter unless the wild yeast/bacteria produces some really foul odor/flavor.
So there are just too many variables to really give a clear answer to question #2.

Alcohol is a great sanitizer, if you make big ABV beers and barleywines, you can cut way back on chemicals.

 

[Owly055]

I ran 20 brews through my Fast Ferment conical doing no sanitization at all to the fermenter except in the beginning. I filled the fermenter to the 6 gallon level, and each week would remove 2 gallons for secondary using a glass ice tea jug for my secondary fermenter.... and dry hopped it. The wort was poured boiling into the fermenter, and would instantly chill down to about 130F. The yeast ball was loosened and the valve closed of course. Once the wort was down to pitch temp, I'd pitch the yeast back into the fermenter. I was using Kveik yeast.

What sanitation I did, was to fill my secondary fermenter with water and drop the Annova Sous Vide in set for 160F for an hour or two prior to using it. I would also take a pan of boiling water and bring it up under the valve assembly to sterilize it before replacing the yeast ball, which also got the boiling water treatment briefly.


H.W.

 

[Droot]

Since I started filling my conical fermenters from the test port directly from the hot brew kettle, I have had no infected beer.

I use a hose and fill the 2 - 7 gallon fermenters after flame out and whirlpool. Wort is about 180 in the second fermenter.

Chiller goes in the brew pot for last 1/2 hour of boil, then chill the wort in the fermenter.

It works for me. I DO use Star San. I keep all my stuff clean., Stainless is scrubbed, Hoses get thrown out after a few uses.

Sanitation is number one for brewing.

Try it if you want. I have thrown out enough beer. Its a lot of work and money down the drain.

David

 

[Dcpcooks]

It's your beer you can do whatever you want with it. If your drinking it quickly in kegs chances are you'll be fine for a while. If your bottling or aging your beers wild yeast and bacteria will catch up with you at some point.

You don't need to worry too much about your hot side gear but it's wise to pay attention to your cold side process.


If you don't mind tossing a few batches of beer every now and then you can skip the chemicals and go for it. I brew half bbl batches that often cost $100 or more. I'm not willing to play roulette with that cost. I can buy a years worth of PBW and star San for the cost of a batch of beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Has anyone ever tried to brew without any sanitation solution, just by carefully cleaning and rinsing equipment with water?
I'm trying to reduce the amount of chemicals in my procedure.

It's one of those things, you might have 8 brews in a row where you had no problems, and then 8 dumpers in a row once a problem set in. So it's more the kind of thing you might get away with if you happen to run out of Starsan rather than something to plan to do on a regular basis - I don't know about you but a brew is a significant enough investment of time as much as money that a dumper really hurts - and once you've got infected, you have to spend almost another brew-time in deep cleaning all the kit.

Having said that, having worked in professional labs with systems that can detect single figures of certain microorganisms, you soon learn that there are parts of a process that are super-sensitive to contamination, and other bits that...aren't. Brewing is a bit like that - as anyone who has visited some of the historic European breweries will know. Open fermenters that random visitors can lean over - unprotected, yeast slopped around in open buckets - all sorts. Some of that is the result of a really robust yeast strain/blend that can deal with intruders, some of it is having a bit more tolerance of intruders as long as they don't create off flavours, and so on.

But if you do get an infection on a commercial scale then you have a massive problem. Alcohol and hops are powerful antiseptics but they only go so far.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Interestingly enough, people who have lab experience seem to care less about sanitation as they know that you cannot get bug free anyway. Just use some soap and hot water and don't leave any visible dirt behind.

We have bugs in the air, on our hands, in our breath, they are everywhere at any time so just keep it reasonable. Except for the cases where, for example Brett or certain Saison yeasts have been used, I see no value in strong chemicals to kill all bugs because you simply cannot accomplish that anyway.

They work in a LAB which is kept at a very clean standard with HEPA air scrubbers and all kinds of extra protections. I know they are not growing cultures in used unsterile glassware. I know they have autoclaves to sterilize tools and equipment. I'll bet most wear gloves. We brew in our garages or outside or in a kitchen with no set standard of cleanliness. We brew with equipment we built from scraps or the local home improvement store. I've taken the tour at White Labs in San Diego. They do way more then just wash their hands.

 

[casualbrewer]

If you only use one vessel for the entire process then you could probably slack on sanitation. I do this so I only really need to sanitize what doesn't get boiled. Mash, boil, and ferment in same pot. Easy.

 

[Miraculix]

They work in a LAB which is kept at a very clean standard with HEPA air scrubbers and all kinds of extra protections. I know they are not growing cultures in used unsterile glassware. I know they have autoclaves to sterilize tools and equipment. I'll bet most wear gloves. We brew in our garages or outside or in a kitchen with no set standard of cleanliness. We brew with equipment we built from scraps or the local home improvement store. I've taken the tour at White Labs in San Diego. They do way more then just wash their hands.

Exactly!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

They work in a LAB which is kept at a very clean standard with HEPA air scrubbers and all kinds of extra protections.

Not necessarily - we didn't, we did have laminar flow cabinets and the like, but we knew that for some activities, we didn't need to use them.

Somewhere like White Labs is a bit different, they have the massive disadvantage that they're having to put yeast into medium that's far more attractive to "intruders" than a hoppy wort that's about to have 5% alcohol - and a small "intrusion" is far more significant at their stage of the process than pitching into wort. And frankly their reputation is built on their customers not taking risks. It's a bit different taking risks with your own beer (again, I'm not recommending that you do, but it's not quite as black and white as some might make out)

 

[orangehero]

Have you heard of pee as sanitizer?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14423

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Years ago cleaners on the order of '1-Step' were considered to be cleaner/sanitizers, as might be implied by the name. Many a beer was brewed after cleaning with such products, and I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of them came out fine. Only at some later juncture did it become apparent that they were not "officially" sanitizers. Much of it apparently has to do with the cost of official certification, and also with the concentration and the required contact time.

 

[MaryB]

Cold side and BK all get rinsed with cold water and I use a scotch brite scubber to get any big gunk off and call it good. Once the wort has been boiled a little Star-San isn't going to hurt anything! Kegs get a rinse and StarSan, every 4-5 fills a soak in PBW in my keg cleaner. Then StarSan and put under CO2 until needed.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If you only use one vessel for the entire process then you could probably slack on sanitation. I do this so I only really need to sanitize what doesn't get boiled. Mash, boil, and ferment in same pot. Easy.

I do this as well, I'm surprised it is not more popular considering lots of folks drain the entire kettle to the fermenter with no regrets.

Imo for primary fermentation an air lock is a little silly, and has led to many minor wort explosions, simply kidding and sealing the kettle with a sheet of plastic is adequate for active fermentation.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If you only use one vessel for the entire process then you could probably slack on sanitation. I do this so I only really need to sanitize what doesn't get boiled. Mash, boil, and ferment in same pot. Easy.

I've done this for several years now and I love how easy it is, I'm surprised it is not more popular considering lots of folks drain the entire kettle to the fermenter with no regrets.

Imo for primary fermentation an air lock is a little silly, and has led to many minor wort explosions, simply lidding and then sealing the kettle with a sheet of plastic is adequate for active fermentation imo, then transfer to a keg with less headspace once fermentation is complete.

Actually more and more are doing this lately, except they have a fancy name and price tag for it, BIAC, or brew in a conical.