Brew a belgian dubbel with Treacle?

[IllegalOnion]

Hi guys!

I'd like to brew my first belgian dubbel. However, I'm missing some stuff. So I try to work around. Is there any possibility this can be close to an estery/fruity and biscuit flavors dubbel? Would the treacle be a good sub for dark candi syrup or unrefined sugar?

Also, in BJCP 2015, there's something somehow confusing for me : "Low to no spicy, herbal, or floral hop aroma, typically absent" and then "Saazer-type, English-type or Styrian Goldings hops commonly used". I wanted to add fuggles to the recipe but I saw comments that it was to grassy. Should I sub some tettnanger for fuggles?

Apologies also for english mistakes.



Recipe:
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Dubbel
TYPE: Tout Grain
Taste:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 1.54 gal
Post Boil Volume: 1.04 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 1.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 1.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.071 SG
Estimated Color: 15.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Quantité Nom Type N° % du Total
2 lbs 0.5 oz Malt Pale (2 Rangs) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 74.4 %
9.6 oz Malt Biscuit (23.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.0 %
1.6 oz Treacle (mélasse) (100.0 SRM) Extrait 3 3.7 %
0.15 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - ébullition 60.0 min Houblons 4 13.1 IBUs
0.15 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - ébullition 30.0 min Houblons 5 10.1 IBUs
0.5 pkg Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787 Levures 6 -


Mash Schedule: Infusion monopalier, corps moyen, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 2 lbs 11.7 oz
----------------------------
Nom du palier Description Palier T° Durée du pali
Saccharification Ajouter 3.28 qt d'eau à 169.4 F 152.1 F 60 mn

Sparge: Rincer par lots en 2 fois (0.27gal, 0.77gal) de 168.1 F d'eau
Notes:





Thanks

 

[IllegalOnion]

I checked a bit more and saw this thread :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10305

But, is it possible to sub dark candi by black treacle? It's really not clear for me.

Thanks

 

[Pie_Man]

I think using dark candi syrup would be best, but treacle should be a decent substitute.

Styrian Goldings is a type of Fuggle hop grown outside of England (usually the Czech Republic, or Slovenia, I think) so you could use Fuggles in a Dubbel. Tettnang will work too, it is not a huge deal as this is a beer style with very little hop character.

You did not ask, but if possible, I would reduce the biscuit malt to under about 10% and try to substitute some Munich (10L) and maybe a little bit of Special B (~ 1%) for the difference.

Cheers!

 

[GuldTuborg]

But, is it possible to sub dark candi by black treacle? It's really not clear for me.

While they're certainly not the same product, they might be close enough if used in smallish quantities. I'd stay away from the darkest grades, even if Black Treacle is much lighter than blackstrap molasses. Maybe a mixture of sweet and black treacle is the answer? I don't really know.

 

[IllegalOnion]

I think using dark candi syrup would be best, but treacle should be a decent substitute.

Styrian Goldings is a type of Fuggle hop grown outside of England (usually the Czech Republic, or Slovenia, I think) so you could use Fuggles in a Dubbel. Tettnang will work too, it is not a huge deal as this is a beer style with very little hop character.

You did not ask, but if possible, I would reduce the biscuit malt to under about 10% and try to substitute some Munich (10L) and a little bit of Special B (~ 2-3%) for the difference.

Cheers!

I understand your point for Special B however I don't have any. I thought that I need candi sugar and black colour. Since black treacle meet both and can give a caramel/toffee flavor, I was like why not.

You suggest also less biscuit. Something wrong in the style with this malt? I was thinking that it could bring a Speculoos flavor. Is Munich better in that case?

While they're certainly not the same product, they might be close enough if used in smallish quantities. I'd stay away from the darkest grades, even if Black Treacle is much lighter than blackstrap molasses. Maybe a mixture of sweet and black treacle is the answer? I don't really know.

Honestly, I followed Beersmith to meet the SRM of the style and did some tries and errors to find the right amount. I got some golden syrup as well. The mix would be a better alternative?

Thanks

 

[Pie_Man]

You suggest also less biscuit. Something wrong in the style with this malt? I was thinking that it could bring a Speculoos flavor. Is Munich better in that case?

22% is just a lot of biscuit malt. It could work in a Dubbel, but it seems excessive. I worry that too much biscuit malt will make the beer finish sweet, and while a Dubbel has sweetness, it should finish dry. Also, adding other malts, like Munich and Special B, helps to build the malt complexity desired in the Dubbel style.

Work with you what you have though. You are only brewing a one gallon batch, so if you don't like it, there's not much wasted and it will be an excellent learning experience. Cheers!

 

[GuldTuborg]

Honestly, I followed Beersmith to meet the SRM of the style and did some tries and errors to find the right amount. I got some golden syrup as well. The mix would be a better alternative?

Thanks

Take this with a grain of salt, as I've not done the substitution myself, but I'm guessing a blend of golden and black treacle would be best. My concern is that too much black treacle will make the beer more bitter than dark candi syrup would.

I didn't see the grainbill earlier. I'd also drop the biscuit percentage. It's much higher than what is normally used. Special B is not at all necessary, but many people like to use it. I don't, and I like my dubbels just fine.

Is there a particular commercial example of a dubbel you like, and would like to use as a starting point for your recipe? That might help determine other factors. When making a recipe, always start at the end: have an idea of what you want it to taste/look/smell like. Then use ingredients to get you there.

 

[IllegalOnion]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I've not done the substitution myself, but I'm guessing a blend of golden and black treacle would be best. My concern is that too much black treacle will make the beer more bitter than dark candi syrup would.

I didn't see the grainbill earlier. I'd also drop the biscuit percentage. It's much higher than what is normally used. Special B is not at all necessary, but many people like to use it. I don't, and I like my dubbels just fine.

Is there a particular commercial example of a dubbel you like, and would like to use as a starting point for your recipe? That might help determine other factors. When making a recipe, always start at the end: have an idea of what you want it to taste/look/smell like. Then use ingredients to get you there.

I took in consideration your concern and decreased the IBU to compensate a possible bitterness from treacle. I also add Golden Syrup but since it has 0 SRM, it was hard to balance.

By the way, I did select biscuit because carahell wasn't on Beersmith list but I just downloaded the Weyermann addon and updated the recipe. I also add some Munich (not sure it's caramunich II I got, it's a retailer that sold it and the sticker says "Eco Munich 23-26 EBC").

I'd like to make an Westmalle double-like, it doesn't have to taste exactly the same and it's definitely not a competition beer. I simply want to have a taste of a darkish belgian.

New recipe updated below

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 1.54 gal
Post Boil Volume: 1.04 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 1.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 1.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 12.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 20.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Quantité Nom Type N° % du Total
2 lbs 1.6 oz Malt Pale (2 Rangs) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 79.5 %
3.2 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.6 %
3.2 oz Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 3 7.6 %
1.8 oz Treacle (mélasse) (100.0 SRM) Extrait 4 4.2 %
0.5 oz Sirop Lyle's Golden (0.0 SRM) Extrait 5 1.1 %
0.10 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] - ébullition 60.0 min Houblons 6 8.9 IBUs
0.10 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - ébullition 30.0 min Houblons 7 6.8 IBUs
0.10 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - ébullition 15.0 min Houblons 8 4.4 IBUs
0.5 pkg Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787 Levures 9 -


Mash Schedule: Infusion monopalier, corps moyen, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 2 lbs 10.2 oz
----------------------------
Nom du palier Description Palier T° Durée du pali
Saccharification Ajouter 3.12 qt d'eau à 169.4 F 152.1 F 60 mn

Sparge: Rincer par lots en 2 fois (0.29gal, 0.77gal) de 168.1 F d'eau

Thanks

 

[bobo31]

For what its worth, I used treacle in a few English brown ales and it really wasn't detectable. I used between 8 to 10 ounces in a 6 gallon batch.

 

[GuldTuborg]

By the way, I did select biscuit because carahell wasn't on Beersmith list but I just downloaded the Weyermann addon and updated the recipe. I also add some Munich (not sure it's caramunich II I got, it's a retailer that sold it and the sticker says "Eco Munich 23-26 EBC").

Careful. Munich malt and caramunich are not at all the same. Same with buscuit and carahell. It's not clear whether you're actually buying one rather than the other, or choosing something that has a similar color, but I want to make sure you're making the right distinctions.