Brett Saison for Aging

[FatDragon]

A few months ago I had the first Brett beer that I really liked - a Boulevard Saison Brett from 2015 (drunk around 3 years old) - and I've got the dregs kicking in some hopped starter wort (hopped for longevity since I'm not doing a full-blown starter right now). I'd like to use them in a saison to age for 8-12 months, and could use some advice, never having used Brett. I'm not aiming for an exact clone, but I could live with a clone if that's my best option.

What I plan on doing:
- Saison, target OG ~1.070 (I'm looking for 7-9% ABV).
- 2-row base (cheap Aussie grain malted in China) - it's a bit bready and low-potential, which means it takes more grain to reach the same OG and probably means more protein gets in the beer.
and probably:
- Primary with a sacc strain like Boulevard does.
- Bulk aging with Brett, probably without temp control (so I can save the chamber for regular brews), which in my brew room means as low as 28F in the winter (but usually more like 36-40F) and as high as 100F in the summer.
- Dry hop, probably some during fermentation and some shortly before bottling several months later.
- Bottling, but I hope to have it pretty much fermented out before I bottle so I can just prime like a normal beer without worrying how much extra carbonation the Brett's going to produce.

What I still need to figure out:
- What other grains should I add? Wheat? Rye (only if it really plays well with Brett)? Anything else? Simple sugars? Would a bit of caramalt contribute some extra food for the Brett to much on after the sacc poops out?
- What primary sacc strain? I've only used Belle Saison for saisons before, but I'm afraid it wouldn't leave much for the Brett to chew on. Unfortunately, I'm limited to dry strains here in China, but just about anything from Fermentis, Lallemand, or Mangrove Jack is available.
- Should I go all-in and pitch the bottle-harvested Brett from the start? With another primary sacc strain, or should I just trust whatever sacc strains are in there with the Brett already? If it comes later, do I need to make a big starter or will it be fine with a couple 500 ml steps in the bottle?
- How long to bulk age before the Brett stops fermenting enough complex sugars to make a significant impact on the carbonation level of the bottle?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Have a look at this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/saison-brett.255734/

 

[FatDragon]

Have a look at this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/saison-brett.255734/

Thanks. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it's a good start for sure. Sounds like co-pitching will be the way to go. Now I still need to figure out what sacc to pitch with the batch, though, since I can't get liquid yeast here. Belle Saison is always available, but as I said, I'm worried it will munch too much of the wort to let the Brett shine. BE-134 is also available, but like Belle Saison it's a Diastaticus variety, so it offers the same potential issues. Or will a diastatic yeast strain work just fine in a Brett beer?

 

[RPh_Guy]

From what I've heard, Belle is perfectly fine in conjunction with Brett.

Other thoughts ...
Brett doesn't need much (or any) sugar to add flavor.

You don't *need* a starter for dregs, but I always make a small one (100-150mL) to see what's alive.

It should attenuate relatively fast, maybe 1-3 months ? Hopefully the other thread answers that question more specific to that Brett strain.
Make sure the FG is stable and reasonably low before bottling.

Cheers!

 

[FatDragon]

Belle Saison it is, then. Here's hoping the Brett really doesn't need much extra sugar, because Belle won't leave much for it to chew on. My dregs have already gotten a bit of feeding, so we'll just let that be enough for them.

 

[FatDragon]

I brewed this up a couple weeks ago. It was a 60/40 split batch with the 40% going to be a hoppy pale ale which I bottled a couple days ago.

It came out to something like 55% domestically malted 2-row (from feed-grade barley - more protein, less pppg, but it tastes fine), 30% Pils, 10% domestic wheat malt, 5% domestic biscuit malt, to 17.5 plato. Hopped around 30-40 IBU with FWH Sorachi Ace and decent late and whirlpool additions of Amarillo, Simcoe, and El Dorado. Co-pitched Belle Saison and the stepped-up Saison Brett dregs (mostly decanted). The dregs from the Brett smelled so good that I bottled 330 mL of the starter beer (DME to ~1.040 boiled a few minutes with a few Sorachi Ace pellets because I planned on letting it sit at ambient temp for a few months) in a ceramic flip-top and I'm really looking forward to trying it. I let it start at 16C because it was sharing the ferm chamber with the US-05 APA, but within a week I had let it rise to 21C, which is where it's sitting now. I plan on giving it 3-4 months in bulk before dry hopping for a couple days (50g Amarillo, 50g El Dorado) and then bottling - probably all in 330mL bottles so the batch will last longer and I'll get to try it over a longer aging period. I'll probably bank some of the yeast cake as well in case I decide it's worth a rebrew or reimagining.

I've not been this excited about a brew in quite some time. I have a gut feeling that this is going to be one of my best beers and possibly start me down a road of using Brett a whole lot more often.

 

[NTexBrewer]

I know you have already brewed this beer. T-58 is another yeast to consider. Not as eatery as other Belgian yeasts but it does not attenuate as much as other yeasts.

 

[FatDragon]

Thanks. If @RPh_Guy is right about Belle playing nicely with Brett and still allowing it to develop its character, it should be fine this way. I've used T-58 once and it was alright, but nothing special in the beer I made, and even though it was a pseudo lager that got a ton of time to cold crash, it never dropped clear. I've also got a couple packs of Danstar Abbaye that were giveaways at a homebrew club meeting and might be an option if this one doesn't get enough Brett character and I want to try again with a different primary sacc strain.

 

[FatDragon]

Took a gravity reading this morning, which I never do mid-ferment. 0.5p. I've had Belle go even drier so it's not a big surprise, but still pretty impressive when the Brett is just getting started. I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop below zero at this point. The sample looks like an NEIPA for color and haziness right now. It went into a 100ml flip top (yeah, I've got a few of those. Clear glass, unfortunately) and into the fridge; no hydrometer sampling before going in to work as a kindergarten teacher, haha!

 

[FatDragon]

The sample was alright, but not particularly distinctive. The saison esters weren't particularly strong, and the Brett is still barely present. Not hot even over 9% ABV and a bit over two weeks old, which is good. Tasting it a bit warmer or carbonated could make a huge difference too, but it's clear this brew is going to need some time.

 

[brownni5]

Once you start talking Brett Saison, yeah, it'll need time. And although it might not be great right away, it could get better and better as it ages.

 

[FatDragon]

Once you start talking Brett Saison, yeah, it'll need time. And although it might not be great right away, it could get better and better as it ages.

Yeah, my expectation is that it'll need several months to start showing its desired character. As I mentioned in the OP so long ago, the bottle that inspired (and inoculated) this brew was three years old, so my intention is to hold on to some of the bottles for quite a while.

 

[mashpaddled]

Four months is a little early to get much brett character, especially out of fairly old dregs and if your brewing space is cooler through that time. Brett is hardy and will get the job done in time. Also keep in mind that a lot of the brett character will develop in the bottle under pressure so if you feel the beer is a little underwhelming uncarbonated that it will likely improve in the bottle.

Just make sure you keep the airlock topped up because oxygen plus brett can make some unpleasant acetic acid.

 

[FatDragon]

Since Brett will apparently affect the flavor of the beer even when it's not fermenting sugar into alcohol, does that mean that I can start bottle aging when this reaches terminal gravity, or will there still be more CO2 being produced? I had some high humidity in my fermentation chamber that, along with the occasional switching on of the heating wire I'm using when the temps drop too low, encouraged a bit of mold to grow on the outside of a couple of small-batch mead fermenters. I don't have any reason to believe that the beer or mead got any mold in it, but I'd be more comfortable getting the beer into bottles so I can be sure that I don't have to worry about that possibility while I try to figure out how to prevent the issue from occurring again in the future.

So, can I expect more CO2 production from the Brett in the bottles (beyond what the priming sugar contributes) or should I be good to bottle when the gravity stabilizes? And by way of determining when it's reached FG, should I expect the Brett to slowly drop the gravity after the Sacc runs out of sugars to eat, or would a stable gravity over a few days be sufficient to determine that it's reached FG like a typical Sacc beer?

 

[RPh_Guy]

does that mean that I can start bottle aging when this reaches terminal gravity, or will there still be more CO2 being produced?

Yes, you can bottle when it hits terminal gravity. Additional CO2 will not be produced unless there is additional fermentation.

y way of determining when it's reached FG, should I expect the Brett to slowly drop the gravity after the Sacc runs out of sugars to eat, or would a stable gravity over a few days be sufficient to determine that it's reached FG like a typical Sacc beer?

Sacc attenuation is fast, Brett attenuation is slow. A few days is not long enough for Brett to even think about fermentation.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation

Normally for tradional mixed fermentation like this you'd want to monitor gravity over several weeks to a few months. However if the gravity is very low, like around 1.000, risk of overcarbonation is low enough that you may feel comfortable bottling sooner.

I've seen people that successfully co-pitch Belle and Brett and then bottle after a couple weeks. YMMV; not all Brett strains act the same. Belle is a special case because it typically ferments so dry.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Packaging

Cheers

Four months is a little early to get much brett character,

I bottled a wild ale and added different Brett cultures to a few sets of bottles. They were all very distinct at the 4 month tasting. There were also noticeable differences even at 2 months.

I suppose my "pitch rate" was higher than average because I built starters from the dregs and added a few drops of slurry to each bottle.

 

[sweetcell]

Since Brett will apparently affect the flavor of the beer even when it's not fermenting sugar into alcohol, does that mean that I can start bottle aging when this reaches terminal gravity, or will there still be more CO2 being produced?

yes you can, but the challenge is figuring out when you're at terminal. brett works slowly, so you need to take readings a month apart, and you want 3 identical readings ideally...

So, can I expect more CO2 production from the Brett in the bottles (beyond what the priming sugar contributes) or should I be good to bottle when the gravity stabilizes?

if gravity is truly stable, you won't get any more CO2.

And by way of determining when it's reached FG, should I expect the Brett to slowly drop the gravity after the Sacc runs out of sugars to eat, or would a stable gravity over a few days be sufficient to determine that it's reached FG like a typical Sacc beer?

brett will continue to drop the gravity slowly, over months. readings that are only days apart will not capture what the brett is up to.

 

[FatDragon]

Transferred to my 5 gallon carboy last night and needed to top-off with about 2.5 liters of water to avoid too much headspace. Originally I thought it was going to be closer to a liter, so I boiled 250g of yellow rock sugar (in the demerara/turbinado range) and added it. If I had known I'd be adding so much water, I probably would have added some DME as well, but oh well, so it goes. The airlock was going gangbusters this morning and spitting out some krausen since I only left a couple inches in the neck to minimize oxidation. I pulled the stopper and rinsed it and the airlock before spritzing and filling with starsan again. If it's still spitting krausen after work, I'll do that again when I get home.

The SG sample, pulled from the top of the carboy after adding the sugar water, was 0.5 plato like before. The flavor, again, was fairly light for a beer of its size, but I'm hoping that a few more months with Brett at summer ambient temperatures will start to develop it further. I'll probably dry hop in 3-4 months before bottling and letting it bottle age for a while.

Anyone who might be listening have any thoughts on oak? I don't think I can get oak cubes, but I can get 50 gram slabs of French or American oak which I'd probably have to saw into a couple pieces to get into the carboy.