Breakfast Stout Flopped but why?

[shamfein]

Hey All,

I brewed up the second batch of breakfast stout as my first one went down really well. However this batch hasnt turned out well whatsoever.

I have posted the recipe below to see if anyone can help. The brewday went as normal, no hiccups, this is what leads me to believe there was an issue with either ingredients or the fermentation itself.

The beer pours nice, smells fine, chocolate, coffee, Caramel all normal aroma's but the head goes in about 15 seconds to nothing, looks as flat as a pancake.

Carbonation levels in the beer itself is fine. The taste is a little thin which is odd considering the amount of oats.

Any help would be appreciated, it might get slightly better over time (i hope) but i really am disapointed in this batch.

Recipe

Breakfast Stout Mark 2
5kg pale malt
1kg Munich
500g chocolate
350g roast barley
350g crystal 120
1kg rolled oats
Mash 154 for one hour
40g nugget for one hour
20g ground coffee (5 mins before end of boil)
50g raw cacao powder (5 mins before end of boil)
Brewed 16/09/2015
Bottled – 06/10/2015
O.G 1.064 – US - 05
F.G 1.019 bottled with 120g brown Sugar

 

[Gnomebrewer]

My first guess would be something to do with the water. Was your first batch the same recipe? The same water? The same water treatment?
Your mash pH might have been out of the ideal range.

 

[Dixon9717]

Could be the soap used on your glasses or equipment. Soap can kill head if not thoroughly rinsed.

 

[Bellybuster]

Could also be it simply needs some time. How long ago was it bottled/legged?

 

[Calichusetts]

Time...most likely. I do a breakfast stout with chocolate, coffee and peppers. Both the peppers and coffee will affect head retention if added during the boil. I didn't get any head AT ALL until about 1/3 of the way through the keg. Head retention was only the last 1/3.

 

[shamfein]

Thanks Guys,

Yes same water, same equipment, same sanitizer as every brew i do.

I really hope its time that is the cause, but its bottled for two months now.

Maybe i just suck at brewing.. haha

 

[Queequeg]

Coffee and cocoa can both negatively effect the head.

Stressed yeast can also result in unwanted byproducts that negatively effect head retention. A stressed fermentation could I suspose also effect the body

 

[specharka]

Coffee and cocoa can both negatively effect the head.

Stressed yeast can also result in unwanted byproducts that negatively effect head retention. A stressed fermentation could I suspose also effect the body

I'm willing to put money on the coffee/cocoa combination. Anything with a significant proportion of soluble oils will degrade head retention, and it's not exclusive to homebrewers. Commercial brews suffer from this as well...I recently had a Treehouse Single Shot that had almost no head.

One remedy is using a drip coffee maker to filter some of the oils out, but that will reduce the aromatic components in the beer.

If it makes you feel better I had this same issue on a breakfast stout, coffee stout and chocolate milk stout. So I am definitely worse at brewing.

 

[fermentology]

It could be the fact that you added the coffee in the boil, but the Crystal malt should cancel that out. When I did my breakfast stout clone I added chocolate in the mash and at the end of the boil and my coffee directly into the keg (whole beans). I didn't have any head retention issues.

My best guess would be oxidation, probably during the bottling process and or some combination with leftover sanitizer/ cleaner on the inside of the bottles.

Was there any difference in your final or original gravity from batch one to batch two? It may not be that the batch was any thinner, but it could be a matter of perception with carbonation.

 

[didinho]

I had retention problems too, the only stout I made with oats. I just used 15% oats and the head was fading in two second.
maybe using 20% is too much...

 

[Toga]

Oats will only help head retention NOT hurt it. One pointer with rolled or old fashioned oats is to do a cereal mash. Cook them as if you were going to eat them but use lots of extra water when you boil them then dump the whole slurry in the mashtun. It will really bring out the nice creamy mouth feel and head retention benefits you get from using oats.

I think your issue has to do with the chocolate and coffee. Below are solutions.

1. Coffee: Solution 1: add fresh brewed or pressed coffee when you bottle or keg. Keep the amount to only what is need to bring out the coffee flavor you desire.
Solution 2. Add fresh whole beans to a sanitized hop sack and toss it into your fermenter 6 hours before you transfer to bottle or keg. It will give you the flavor and minimize the compounds extracted from the coffee.

2. chocolate: Not sure what kind of chocolate you used, dark or other. Stick to bakers chocolate or raw cacao liquor. For bakers chocolate use coco powder. Powdered chocolate has fraction of the oil that chocolate in bar form has. Adding chocolate to the mash vs during the boil will help absorb a fair amount of the oil too.

 

[Queequeg]

Oats can negatively effect head if used excessively. Coffee, chocolate and oats all have one thing in common and that is significant amounts of oils. It is these oils that effect the head retention.

There are ways around the problem. With oats you can just use a sensible amount. Your'll only have problems with oats when you use say 2lb.

Chocolate additives each have their issues. Bakers will kill the head but gives a wonderful mouthfeel but not much flavour. Low fat choco powder will give good flavour but I have read some folks having issue with a chalky taste. Chocolate extract gives loads if flavour and does not effect the head, however its expensive.

For coffee I think the best way to include it is however you would make good coffee. Adding it the boil is a bad idea because it will over extract the coffee. This means lots of oils and lots of nasty bitter compounds. Making a cold brew coffee fixes this but IME doesn't produce a robust enough flavour to stand up against a stout or porter. For my next brew I am going to aerpress a sufficient volume of coffee and then filter it through multiple cemex filters to remove the crema and lipids.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I actually did a rebrew of the BYO FBS recipe which looks similar the one you brewed. I had the same problem this time around though my issue was due to water volumes. I ended up with over a gallon extra wort and the resulting beer was watery and not very stout. If you are still in the fermentor you could add some lactose or something to give it a bit more body.

 

[fermentology]

This is what I did for my FBS "clone"

If you go to the tasting notes you can see what it looks like poured. The picture was taken after I filled a growler from my keggerator and brought it to a friend's house after it sat in a cooler in my car at work all day.

 

[fermentology]

I just thought about this. What kind of chocolate did you use? I specifically bought powdered chocolate that has a low fat content and low alkalinity so that it doesn't mess with my beers pH. I've noticed that a higher final pH on a beer will cause your head retention and stability to suffer. It could have been that more then fat content or the two in combination.

 

[shamfein]

Hey All,

Appreciate the help on the issue,

To answer some questions, i used raw cacao powder, the good stuff, got it from my local health shop, no additives whatsoever.

I added both the coffee and cacao powder 5 mins before the end of boil,

Subsequently the beer has been aging well, Its over 3 months in the bottle and its definitely improving. Its not tasting as thin as it once was and the head is sticking around for a little longer than it was before.

Maybe in a few months it will be fully developed. So there is hope afterall.

 

[Calichusetts]

After a month or so, I was getting substantially better head retention as well.

 

[RM-MN]

Hey All,

Appreciate the help on the issue,

To answer some questions, i used raw cacao powder, the good stuff, got it from my local health shop, no additives whatsoever.

I added both the coffee and cacao powder 5 mins before the end of boil,

Subsequently the beer has been aging well, Its over 3 months in the bottle and its definitely improving. Its not tasting as thin as it once was and the head is sticking around for a little longer than it was before.

Maybe in a few months it will be fully developed. So there is hope afterall.

Put a couple bottles away and leave them for a long time. Try one at the one year mark, then the other at 2 years. I think you will learn something from that.

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

In my experience the best way to add coffee is by cold brewing it and then adding it when bottling. Cold brewed coffee has a remarkably different taste from regular percolated coffee. You'll also get less oils extracted so it's less of a problem with head retention.

 

[LostBoyScout]

"Hasn't turned out whatsoever" but smells and tastes fine with carb but no head retention and a bit thin on body? I think we have different definitions for not turning out