Bourbon Barrel Imperial Stout recipe critique/advice

[mozart4898]

Greetings and Happy Holidays all!

Only recently being back into brewing, I've got a list of recipes and ideas and now just need the time to brew them, space for fermenters...and then I need to drink all the beer too! (Oh, what a problem to have... )

I'm planning to brew an imperial stout on New Year's Day...of course that's a way off but I'm really looking forward to this one and want to make sure it comes out well. Obviously a good bit of both time and money will go into this one.

Not looking to clone anything specifically, but my favorite RIS I've had was the Oak Aged Yeti, and I also have enjoyed the New Holland Dragon's Milk. If I'm missing something that's a key ingredient in both (or if something is drastically out of place) please let me know...but as I said this isn't meant to be a clone.

Calculations from the BrewR Android App:
OG - 1.115
FG - 1.029 (will likely be lower, can't adjust for apparent attenuation in app)
Bitterness - 92.6 IBU
SRM - 62
ABV - 11.4% (likely higher - 11.5-12% is my goal, not sure I want it to get much over 12% though)

Planning to mash probably around 154 - not too low, not too high.
5.25 gallons into primary, full boil starting with ~7 gallons. Calculations are assuming 75% efficiency, 2 runs with my system have been 76-77%
12 lb Maris Otter (52.2%)
5 lb Munich (21.7%)
2 lb Flaked Barley (8.7%)
1 1/2 lb Chocolate Malt (6.5%)
1 lb Crystal 40L (4.3%)
3/4 lb Special B (3.3%)
3/4 lb Roasted Barley (3.3%)

2 oz Calypso (17% AA, 72.6 IBU) 60 min
1 oz Cascade (8.5% AA, 6.6 IBU) 10 min
1 oz Columbus (17.5% AA, 13.6 IBU) 10 min
2 oz Mt. Hood (7.5% AA, 0.0 IBU) 0 min

2 packs US-05

1-2 oz bourbon soaked oak chips in secondary for 1-2 weeks

Looking for a malty, chewy stout with nice coffee and dried fruit flavors, as well as some spice and "resinous" qualities from the hops, with a touch of vanilla from the oak and a hint of bourbon.

 

[poptarts]

The IBU will be over style so so will the abyss so it should balance okay.

 

[mozart4898]

The IBU will be over style so so will the abyss so it should balance okay.

Yeah, I'm aware of the IBU being slightly over style but I also look at a RIS as being one of those beers that really doesn't have much of an "upper limit" as long as things are balanced. As you say, I think it'll end up balancing ok given time to age a bit.

Calculated BU:GU ratio is 0.80 which from what I can find is pretty much dead on for a RIS.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Massive beers like this typically get lower efficiency. If you use enough sparge water, you can generally get it back, but then you're typically looking at a much longer brew day. For some of my monsters, I can't fit all the wort in my kettle. I have to let some boil off first, which starts the hot break all over again. Your other ways around this are to add about 2lbs of grain for every 5 points efficiency lost, have some DME on hand, use sugar (which would help your attenuation) or just accept whatever gravity you get.

I don't think the IBUs will be a problem, but given how long 12% Stouts are typically aged, I don't think you'll get much out of the late additions. If it were my beer (it's not, so ignore this if you like), I would age it for several months on oak cubes, rather than chips, and add the Columbus & Mt Hood as dry hops about a week before you bottle. Your recipe's making me thirsty. I need to brew another stout.

 

[mozart4898]

Massive beers like this typically get lower efficiency. If you use enough sparge water, you can generally get it back, but then you're typically looking at a much longer brew day. For some of my monsters, I can't fit all the wort in my kettle. I have to let some boil off first, which starts the hot break all over again. Your other ways around this are to add about 2lbs of grain for every 5 points efficiency lost, have some DME on hand, use sugar (which would help your attenuation) or just accept whatever gravity you get.

I don't think the IBUs will be a problem, but given how long 12% Stouts are typically aged, I don't think you'll get much out of the late additions. If it were my beer (it's not, so ignore this if you like), I would age it for several months on oak cubes, rather than chips, and add the Columbus & Mt Hood as dry hops about a week before you bottle. Your recipe's making me thirsty. I need to brew another stout.

All good points - I'm figuring efficiency will suffer somewhat but since this will be my first big beer, I figured I'd calculate based on close to my normal efficiency and then see where it puts me. I will have some DME on hand (have a bag for making starters which I don't use that often since I generally use dry yeast), and if it's way low that would be a good way to bump it up. If I'm in the ballpark I'll let it ride.

Truthfully I didn't really think about dry hopping this - I certainly won't ignore that bit of advice because you're right, this will age for a while. I'm planning to brew on New Year's and then probably not bottle until 2-3 months in at least, then give it another 3-6 months in the bottle. I'm really thinking the first of these may not be cracked open until early next fall - maybe late summer at the earliest. Even then a dry hop will fade too somewhat, but that might be a desirable effect. I'm not expecting it to be a hop bomb, nor do I want that, but I do want at least some hop character. Maybe toss in 1 oz of Mt. Hood at flameout and save the Columbus and the other oz of Mt. Hood for a dry hop.

 

[mozart4898]

Any thoughts from anyone on the grain bill? Anyone used Munich in a stout/RIS before? I figure the maltiness can only be good for this beer. Proportions of chocolate malt, Special B, and roasted malt look good? As I said, I want a complex malt profile...dried fruit, coffee, chocolate, etc.

Also...I know I've seen this stated before but can anyone tell me again what malt specifically tends to affect the color of the head the most (chocolate, roasted malt)? My goal would be a nice creamy tan/khaki colored head - do I have the right malts to achieve that?

Today's brew also finished with 77% efficiency - that makes 3 in a row within about 1% of each other. I do imagine it'll drop when I get to this brew but I just wish there was a way to figure how much

 

[Herky21]

Any thoughts from anyone on the grain bill? Anyone used Munich in a stout/RIS before? I figure the maltiness can only be good for this beer. Proportions of chocolate malt, Special B, and roasted malt look good? As I said, I want a complex malt profile...dried fruit, coffee, chocolate, etc.

Also...I know I've seen this stated before but can anyone tell me again what malt specifically tends to affect the color of the head the most (chocolate, roasted malt)? My goal would be a nice creamy tan/khaki colored head - do I have the right malts to achieve that?

Today's brew also finished with 77% efficiency - that makes 3 in a row within about 1% of each other. I do imagine it'll drop when I get to this brew but I just wish there was a way to figure how much

GI Bourbon County Stout is supposedly like half munich. It at least has Munich in it. I think that's how it gets its noted sweetness - in addition to some other factors of course. This recipe actually looks fairly close to some clone attempts of BCS.

If you haven't looked into wood aging techniques you might want to. I agree with the suggestion to use cubes. If you're going to age this thing anyways than age it on wood and get a slow extraction so you get those flavors of vanilla that you want. That's where it comes from. Long contact with thicker pieces of wood. Chips will add a base amount of wood flavor, but I don't think they will give you much vanilla unless you are purchasing a flavored oak chip.

Obviously, it is your stout so do what you want, but I think it would be much better - and on track with your projected aging schedule - to age on cubes or staves or spirals.

As for the rest of the malt bill - it looks pretty good. I'm not sure I'd use quite that much chocolate malt, but that's just because I find it overwhelms the other flavors. It does taste good in its own way. It's probably fine though. You have a good amount of highly kilned/roasted malts so this will definitely be pretty bold.

 

[mozart4898]

GI Bourbon County Stout is supposedly like half munich. It at least has Munich in it. I think that's how it gets its noted sweetness - in addition to some other factors of course. This recipe actually looks fairly close to some clone attempts of BCS.

If you haven't looked into wood aging techniques you might want to. I agree with the suggestion to use cubes. If you're going to age this thing anyways than age it on wood and get a slow extraction so you get those flavors of vanilla that you want. That's where it comes from. Long contact with thicker pieces of wood. Chips will add a base amount of wood flavor, but I don't think they will give you much vanilla unless you are purchasing a flavored oak chip.

Obviously, it is your stout so do what you want, but I think it would be much better - and on track with your projected aging schedule - to age on cubes or staves or spirals.

As for the rest of the malt bill - it looks pretty good. I'm not sure I'd use quite that much chocolate malt, but that's just because I find it overwhelms the other flavors. It does taste good in its own way. It's probably fine though. You have a good amount of highly kilned/roasted malts so this will definitely be pretty bold.

I appreciate the thoughts on the wood aging, and I've looked into the cubes - I'll probably go that route in the end. I'm pretty sure my LHBS only has chips so I may have to order them. As far as the thought on the chocolate malt, I'd have nothing against bumping it down a half pound or so - I've intentionally been heavy handed with dark malts because I want to ensure bold flavors but of course, I don't want to overdo it. I'll give that some thought.

After thinking about it too I may very well go with a liquid yeast - one smackpack will actually cost less than two packs of dried, and I have the extract already to make a starter. I just have to figure out a container big enough to make a starter for this beast - the one I've used before is a 1.5L Carlo Rossi jug (it's their smaller one, not the bigger gallon or close to it size). I'd save part or most of the yeast cake from my pale ale currently in primary (it's US-05) and just refrigerate it but I'd hate to somehow pick up an infection in the process - seems safer to me to start with fresh yeast.

 

[Herky21]

well a recipe for an RIS in brewing classic styles has 2.5 pounds of chocolate malt and 2.5 pounds of roasted barley so maybe 1.5 pounds will be fine!

 

[mozart4898]

well a recipe for an RIS in brewing classic styles has 2.5 pounds of chocolate malt and 2.5 pounds of roasted barley so maybe 1.5 pounds will be fine!

Wow...that sounds crazy. I thought 1 1/2# chocolate and 3/4# roasted barley were pretty substantial.

 

[Herky21]

Wow...that sounds crazy. I thought 1 1/2# chocolate and 3/4# roasted barley were pretty substantial.

Yeah i agree. This beer says to age in bottles for 1-3 years before consumption as well. Must be bold.

 

[jimyson]

After thinking about it too I may very well go with a liquid yeast - one smackpack will actually cost less than two packs of dried, and I have the extract already to make a starter. I just have to figure out a container big enough to make a starter for this beast - the one I've used before is a 1.5L Carlo Rossi jug (it's their smaller one, not the bigger gallon or close to it size). I'd save part or most of the yeast cake from my pale ale currently in primary (it's US-05) and just refrigerate it but I'd hate to somehow pick up an infection in the process - seems safer to me to start with fresh yeast.

I just did a Barleywine with and OG @ 1.115 and used 3 vials of liquid with a 4.8L starter on a stir plate. Have you looked at Mr Malty to calculate? Big beers need a lot strong yeast.

 

[allenH]

My big RIS was modeled after Cigar City's Marshall Zhukov, the grain bill went like this:

15lb Maris Otter
6lb Munich II
3lb chocolate
3lb roasted Barley
.5lb flaked rye
1lb flaked oats
.25lb special b
OG 1.114 - FG 1.032 - 90 IBU
5.5gal split into 2-6.5 gal fermenters.

I brewed up a 1.060 starter stout to grow enough wyeast 1968 to finish this beast. I started off with just under 3gal in each fermenter to accommodate the massive krausen, and to make aeration easier at the 18 hour mark (poured back and forth between the 2 fermenters).
I did a double mash, figuring it would help out my efficiency, and planned on a 2 hour boil. After the first hour, my numbers were way too low, so I sparged the grains again. After a 5 hour boil, I was as close as I was going to get to my planned OG.
This was my 40th AG batch, which I thought I was prepared for, but it whipped my ass. Beer tasted great at bottling though.

 

[mozart4898]

I just did a Barleywine with and OG @ 1.115 and used 3 vials of liquid with a 4.8L starter on a stir plate. Have you looked at Mr Malty to calculate? Big beers need a lot strong yeast.

Yeah that was my point - the container I've used is 1.5L or thereabouts. I haven't actually calculated it but I'm sure for this one, a starter somewhere north of 3L would be suggested.

Ah well, not like it'd be that big of a deal to buy a 1 gallon glass jug/fermenter at the LHBS to build up a starter for this and any further big beers. This is NOT going to be a cheap beer by any means

 

[mozart4898]

My big RIS was modeled after Cigar City's Marshall Zhukov, the grain bill went like this:

15lb Maris Otter
6lb Munich II
3lb chocolate
3lb roasted Barley
.5lb flaked rye
1lb flaked oats
.25lb special b
OG 1.114 - FG 1.032 - 90 IBU
5.5gal split into 2-6.5 gal fermenters.

I brewed up a 1.060 starter stout to grow enough wyeast 1968 to finish this beast. I started off with just under 3gal in each fermenter to accommodate the massive krausen, and to make aeration easier at the 18 hour mark (poured back and forth between the 2 fermenters).
I did a double mash, figuring it would help out my efficiency, and planned on a 2 hour boil. After the first hour, my numbers were way too low, so I sparged the grains again. After a 5 hour boil, I was as close as I was going to get to my planned OG.
This was my 40th AG batch, which I thought I was prepared for, but it whipped my ass. Beer tasted great at bottling though.

Didn't seem overpowering on the chocolate/roasted barley then I take it?

How much did your efficiency suffer for this beer compared to your normal? (in other words, what's your usual efficiency and what did you hit on this one). I will be able to fit the entire mash in my converted cooler that I've used the past few brews but I know the consensus is, bigger beer = lower efficiency.

 

[allenH]

Didn't seem overpowering on the chocolate/roasted barley then I take it?

How much did your efficiency suffer for this beer compared to your normal? (in other words, what's your usual efficiency and what did you hit on this one). I will be able to fit the entire mash in my converted cooler that I've used the past few brews but I know the consensus is, bigger beer = lower efficiency.

The beer it's modeled after starts at 1.130 and finishes about 1.040, it needs the big roast and chocolate, along with the 90ibu to balance it out. It is a ridiculously thick beer.

My efficiency averages 76-79%, so I planned for 65% on this one. It's hard to tell my exact percentage, since I had such a bad time with my volumes, but I didn't make it to 65%.

 

[mozart4898]

Haven't checked back in on this thread until now but I wanted to post and say that this was brewed on 1/1/14:rockin:

As allenH said about his big RIS, this beer whipped my ass. First of all it was a nice balmy 20 something degree brew day, brewing in the garage with doors propped open for ventilation. Fresh fallen snow blowing in from time to time. Cold enough that my original plan of mashing in the garage went out the window and I mashed in my 10 gallon converted cooler indoors again as I've been doing (I didn't want to have to move the amount of wort this was going to end up being, but I ended up splitting it into two pots, one for first runnings and one for sparge, to make it easier to move, and did it indoors). I'm concerned my mash temp may have been lower than desired but to be honest, I can't be sure what the temps really were down in the middle of the mash. On the top of the mash they started out around 156, stabilized a few degrees below that for 20 minutes or so I'd say, then dropped to around 150. I'm worried about that, I can't lie. Collected 7.75 gallons and undershot my goal for gravity by around 0.015, so I ended up tossing in 1.75# of DME to make up for that. My efficiency worked out to 64% - a big drop from normal, but not surprising.

Other than the poor efficiency, dealing with the cold, and having to boil for about 2 hours to get down to the desired volume (which I expected), I didn't run into any major snags. I *loved* the smell of the Calypso hops I used for bittering - first time I used them and I could see them making it into an IPA down the line. I had an "add more hops" moment at the last minute and went with 1.5 oz of Mt. Hood at flameout rather than the planned 1 oz, but kept everything else the same (I will be doing the 1 oz of Columbus and 1 oz of the Mt. Hood as a dry hop, as suggested). My original gravity with the DME added for correction came out to 1.111. I'm figuring even if my mash temp was a bit low, both the unfermentables from the extract and just the medium attenuation level of the Wyeast 1084 will keep the final gravity in the low to mid 1.020s, if not even upper 20s.

I've always done primary in buckets and never used a blowoff setup, but I figured I better for this. I still almost didn't but decided in the end to use the hose over the center post of the airlock trick. 12 hours in, there was no clear sign of fermentation and I was briefly worried I'd screwed up. I come home not quite 12 hours later, and the hose is full of foam with sticky residue around the airlock, and a slight brown color to the water in my growler beside the bucket. 5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket and it indeed did blow off, but no problems containing it. I've had great luck keeping the water bath around the fermenter almost exactly 65 degrees and bubbles in the growler are now just about gone from what I can see, only 5 days into fermentation. About due to switch to an airlock and test the gravity and see where we are.

Parents came through with a used 5 gallon whiskey barrel for Christmas too, so I'll be using that for brief oak aging after primary, then a secondary (tertiary?) probably in a better bottle with 2 ounces of dry hops. This one will likely bulk and then bottle age until September/October at least - I anticipate this being great next winter.

 

[mozart4898]

Did my first gravity check today in preparation for moving this to secondary (bourbon barrel) soon. Down to 1.033, 10.24% by standard calculation, 11.63% by "alternate" calculation, supposedly more accurate for higher gravity beers. Starting from an original gravity of 1.111 that makes the apparent attenuation just a shade over 70% at this point with Wyeast 1084. My guess is that it's probably still slowly dropping as this has only been actively fermenting for 12 days, and this was my first gravity reading, but the Irish Ale yeast could also be nearing its breaking point. Krausen dropped about 4-5 days in and visible blowoff/airlock activity seems to have ceased as of a couple days ago; my guess is the yeast still has a few points left in it (Wyeast says 71-75% attenuation and 12% ABV alcohol tolerance). Planning to transfer to the barrel on Wednesday (with airlock), then if it's not quite as low as I'm hoping (if it makes the 20s I'm happy) I'll probably pitch champagne yeast in tertiary hoping to dry it out a couple more points.

Flavor though is amazing considering how young it is. It's warm, but surprisingly not fiery hot...I consider that shocking for not even two weeks and ~11% ABV. Already showing some nice complex roasty flavors - I pick up a hint of coffee and chocolate both, the dried fruit isn't there yet but I figure aging will bring that out more. I already anticipate the interplay between what's there and the bourbon/oak yet to come. Not overly sweet given the amount of roasted malts and probably also a result of a calculated ~90 IBU. The hop flavor is minimal - I'm glad I upped the flameout Mt. Hood addition by 1/2 oz and probably should have given it another 1/2 oz even, but the dry hop in tertiary before bottling will probably help that out, and be mellowed by some time in bottles to blend in.

I'm nowhere near "done" with this beer but at this point I'd say if someone is looking for a big RIS to brew, you might give this a shot. I'd love to hear input/comments from anyone else if they happen to try it or something close.

 

[Herky21]

I think it will keep dropping, at least into the upper 20s. Glad to hear it went well.

I had a quad (10.5%) drop to 1.033 initially. It's since dropped to 1.027 but it took like 2 months after primary. anyways, who knows how long it will take but I'm sure yours will keep dropping. I don't think I would use champagne yeast myself but I'd have to hear people with more experience on the subject.

 

[mozart4898]

Update - Today (1/29) after 10 days in the bourbon barrel the gravity has dropped to 1.029, which is getting right into the target range. (That works out to 72-74% attenuation depending on the calculator, don't know why they differ but they do depending on where I look.) A point or two more and I'd be completely satisfied but even if it didn't drop at all from where it is, I think it's at a great point. I've got a raging cold so I can't quite taste right, but it doesn't seem overly sweet. I can only think of one word to describe what I taste at this point, and that's "fantastic." I'm not picking up much of the oak/bourbon notes at this point but that could be the cold just keeping me from tasting it right. It's warm all the way down, but smooth, not hot at all. Chocolate, coffee, maybe a hint of bourbon, and surprisingly enough, dried fruit (perhaps cherry) now starting to show itself. Man this thing is gonna be good.

FWIW, the champagne yeast isn't so much to finish fermentation as it is to ensure it actually carbs in a bottle. I'm figuring I'll want to throw it in 1-2 weeks before botting just to make sure the champagne yeast doesn't chew any remaining sugars other than bottling sugar once it's in a bottle. After putting the time and money into this one I don't want a couple cases of bottle bombs...

 

[Hokie_Brewer]

How did this turn out? We are planning a group brew for a 55-gal bourbon barrel and I'm interested how this finished.

 

[mozart4898]

It ended up finishing at 1.029 and the cold I had at the time I tasted it from the barrel must have been keeping me from tasting the contributions of the barrel, because the bourbon/oak notes are still very prominent a year later. It got 3 1/2 weeks in that barrel and probably would have been fine with half that. Then again if you're using a 55 gallon bourbon barrel the ratio of liquid to surface area should minimize how oakey and bourboney yours ends up.

I'm not sure if the bourbon barrel or the high alcohol are the reason but it never did carb the way I was hoping - the bottle gives a nice little "pfft" when you open it but it never forms a head and there's certainly no such thing as lacing - at best there's a little raft of bubbles. I really do wonder whether the oak may have had something to do with it but of course I think the biggest issue was the alcohol level.