Bottle Harvesting Saison Dupont

[FatDragon]

Liquid yeast is virtually impossible to source here in China, so I almost exclusively use dry yeast. However, after trying my first bottle of Saison Dupont a month or two ago, I decided I need to try the yeast in one of my own brews. I've got three bottles in the mail from Beijing and I'm planning on using them to build up starter for an upcoming brew (shake in a jar method, not much need for a stirplate without ready access to liquid yeast).

A few relevant questions:

- What kind of pitch rate should I aim for? Standard pitch, overpitch, underpitch?

- Should I supplement with a partial/whole packet of Belle Saison I've got lying around? If so, should I pitch together, or add the Belle Saison a few days in to let the Dupont character build unchallenged early in fermentation? The main reasons I would add the dry yeast would be to bolster the pitch rate or to dry out the beer.

- What kind of temps should I go for? Standard ale temps? Something higher? I can't really let it free rise because my apartment's too cold, but I could keep adjusting the STC-1000 to roughly simulate a free rise if that's a good idea.

- Adjuncts or no? I've got an Osmanthus and Sichuan Pepper Saison on my to-do list, but I'm not sure if I should go with that or let the Dupont yeast shine on its own this time around.

 

[Quaker]

I used built up Saison dregs while in Shanghai as well. I think I collected from 2 bottles to propagate, but it was readily available in Shanghai.

Build the dregs up first into a pitch able quantity. I pitch at a normal ale pitch right, but I'm sure others prefer to stress them a bit for character. For the first time with this yeast, I wouldn't try to get fancy.

Dupont's yeast is notorious for stalling, because a small drop in temp once started causes it to drop out of suspension. I chose the Shanghai summer for my brew with it. I chilled to 18C and let it free rise; first with AC at 23C in the room, then the AC off as it appeared to slow down on day 4 or 5 from memory. It went into the upper 20s.

Pitching together with the Belle Saison can help finish the beer even if the Dupont stalls. Delaying will give them the advantage, but I would worry the Dupont hogs the available O2. I'd rather pitch together, but with a lower portion of Belle Saison.

1st brew I'd say no spices or non-grain adjuncts. You can always harvest the yeast from this batch for more creative playing later.

 

[lowtones84]

Quaker's advice is pretty sound. I've used Dupont dregs with great success and kept some around as my house yeast for around a year. I would agree with pitching at a "standard rate" for your brew, but underpitching is nice too.

I would slowly ramp the temp up from the mid or high 60's to the upper 70's, 80's, and perhaps even 90's. I mismanaged my temp on a saison with cultured dupont yeast and let it get into the 90's for a day. It threw off some different flavors, but a few months down the line and it might be my favorite saison now.

If you give it time and ramp the temp up well, you -shouldn't- need any other yeast, but it is possible. I would certainly keep spices out of it, but a little sugar to lighten the body and make it a little drier won't hurt anything as long as you don't go overboard.

 

[serum]

I've heard people saying that the yeast harvested from the bottle is much easier to deal with and less prone to stalling than the strains White Labs and Wyeast sell. I have a 750ml bottle in the garage so I'll be putting this to the test as soon as I can.

One thing I'll say about growing dregs up is that you need to make sure you give it enough time in the first few steps. It can sometimes take several days for the yeast to get going and I'm sure I've thrown a few starters away in error thinking they weren't going.

 

[bigmunchez]

I've heard people saying that the yeast harvested from the bottle is much easier to deal with and less prone to stalling than the strains White Labs and Wyeast sell.

Totally agree. I've used cultured dupont yeast in about 6 or 7 saisons so far and it is a beast. Always gets my 1.050 wort down to about 1.002-1.004 within 10 days. I start it at 18°C and let it rise all the way up to 28°C by day 7 and its never stalled out on me.
Also did a side by side split ferment with dupont and belle saison - in blind tasting they were pretty similar but 4 out of 4 tasters preferred the dupont.

 

[lowtones84]

One thing I'll say about growing dregs up is that you need to make sure you give it enough time in the first few steps. It can sometimes take several days for the yeast to get going and I'm sure I've thrown a few starters away in error thinking they weren't going.

This is also true. My first step was also a lower gravity starter than usual, I believe around 1.030.

 

[divrguy]

I recently did a a few dregs starters and I agree with all the above posts. I would start with a lower gravity starter like 1.025 and ramp up the second one. Also, my first dregs starters seemed to take off a little slower as well but then the second one really took off.

I would save the dry yeast as a backup. Good luck with your brew!

 

[FatDragon]

All these replies have me excited for this brewday, even though it's a month or so away. Good thing is even if the starters all fail miserably and I resort to the Belle Saison in the end, I still get to drink Dupont in the meantime.

 

[TastyAdventure]

FatDragon I was right behind you on this harvesting project, and wanted to check in on how yours is going. I built up dregs from one bottle and pitched into 2.5 gallons. It was probably and underpitch, but I had a very nice sized krausen by day 2-3. OG was 1.062 and now on day 10 of is at 1.009. I am hoping for at least 1.005...
I pitched at 65-68, and let it rise up to about 84 it peaked, it dropped some to 78, but I got a heat light on it, back up to 81.
I still have the heat lamp on it, hoping that when I check Gravity in 3 days that it has lowered some.
Should I rouse it up a bit (while avoiding oxidation?

 

[FatDragon]

FatDragon I was right behind you on this harvesting project, and wanted to check in on how yours is going. I built up dregs from one bottle and pitched into 2.5 gallons. It was probably and underpitch, but I had a very nice sized krausen by day 2-3. OG was 1.062 and now on day 10 of is at 1.009. I am hoping for at least 1.005...
I pitched at 65-68, and let it rise up to about 84 it peaked, it dropped some to 78, but I got a heat light on it, back up to 81.
I still have the heat lamp on it, hoping that when I check Gravity in 3 days that it has lowered some.
Should I rouse it up a bit (while avoiding oxidation?

My third step went into wide-mouthed jars, and two of three looked infected afterwards. I tried stepping up into 1.5 liter bottles by doing a miniature BIAB mash in a 4 liter pot for the wort. Couldn't keep temps, ended up with wort that passed an iodine test but was super cloudy and sketchy. All three starters looked good and smelled horrible in their individual bottles; lots of krausen and gassing off of something stinky. After a few days, one of them developed thick mold on the surface - I imagine that means that the fermentation stopped, mybe because the wort wasn't converted as well as the iodine made it out to be. After another few days, the other two did the same thing. All were dumped.

I'll try this again sometime, probably a single bottle, just DME starters, and go straight from the Dupont bottle into a sanitized water or soda bottle after the first or second step so there's not as much space for infections to get in - skipping the widemouth jars. In the meantime, my next saison will use Belle Saison.

 

[TastyAdventure]

Dang dude that sucks...

 

[FatDragon]

Dang dude that sucks...

User error. I'll do a better job next time, so it works for me.

 

[serum]

I've just grown this up to a 1.5L starter so I'll be ready to use it for one of my next brews. Fingers crossed!

 

[lowtones84]

Well, at least you got to drink some Saison Dupont, right?

 

[FatDragon]

Well, at least you got to drink some Saison Dupont, right?

My thoughts exactly.