Bottle bombs and lacto

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wondercow

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Not sure which forum is the best to post this in. A few months ago, I posted about a few batches that turned into bottle bombs. Well, my problems have not gone away. I have now brewed at least 6 batches in a row that have all had overcarbonation problems leading to bottle bombs, and I don't know what to do anymore. Rather than overcarbonation due to incomplete fermentation or overpriming, I now suspect that my problems are result of infection, especially because of the consecutive nature of the batches turning into bottle bombs.

I was reading about lactobacillus infections on the forum a few days ago and read where someone said that most wild lacto can't survive in environments above about 3% ABV (sorry, lost the link, so hopefully nobody wants verification of this fact). My beers certainly taste like they are above 3% ABV (recipes indicate that they should be around 5%). However, that same thread also said that lacto is the same bacteria that causes milk to go sour. At my house, our milk pretty consistently goes bad on or slightly before the "sell by" date on the jug. I always assumed that was due to a roommate not closing the fridge all the way or Kroger doing a bad job of labelling their milk jugs, but now the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Is it possible that I have some super-strain of wild lactobacillus in the air in my house that is getting into my beer and surviving at higher ABV? Is there anything I can do to more conclusively diagnose it? Is there anything I can do to stop the lacto (other than moving out)?

More details/ranting about my problem below (but my question is above so you don't have to read this part):

All of my exploding beers have been different styles. I have cleaned every signel piece of brewing equipment with a heavy dose of PBW and still had problems. I used to use StarSan, but when that ran out I replaced it with powdered One-Step, and I feel that all post-boil equipment is thoroughly sanitized before use. Every batch I brew, I get more and more obsessive about cleanliness for fear of infection, to no avail. All of my beers taste perfectly fine for about 2 months, then most of the bottles I haven't already consumed seem to get suddenly overcarbonated, and if left alone, will eventually explode. Short of brewing in an industrial cleanroom, I'm not sure what else I can do to make my process more sterile in the home environment. If there is super-lacto in my air, I don't know what else to do.

Brewing isn't nearly as fun anymore. Half the thrill, in my opinion, of making a tasty beer is giving it away. Now, I'm petrified to give my beer to anyone for fear of a bottle exploding on them. In the rare circumstance that I do give it away, I give a disclaimer that they must drink the beer within a week (which my friends have not heeded, and then complained when a bottle exploded in their fridge 2 months later). I love cellaring beers, but I can't keep any of my brews past about 3 months for liability reasons.
 
Well, for one thing one-step is NOT a sanitizer. Oh, it can be used as one, but it is not recognized as a sanitizer by the FDA. Once you get rid of this infection, purchase a recognized sanitizer such as star-san, iodophor, etc.

The next thing on my mind is the bottles. The beer seems to be getting infected in the bottling process. So, that makes me thing of the bottling bucket, spigot, bottle filler, and/or the racking cane, as well as the bottles themselves. I'd suggest throwing away any plastic and purchasing new, and bleach bombing everything else. Do you boil the priming solution?

I didn't know that lacto could only survive in low ABV environments. I had a gusher infection a couple of years ago which tasted very, very sour and I thought it was lacto. It worsed with time, and that beer was over 6% ABV.
 
the bottles exploded while in the fridge?? I thought that was the "save" for over carb. put it in the fridge to make the yeast go dormant.
 
You don't mention any sour milk smell or lemon or vinegar flavors so maybe your beer doesn't have an infection and you are over carbing them. What type of priming sugar are you using and how much are you using.
 
Do you boil the priming solution?
What type of priming sugar are you using and how much are you using.

Thus far, I have always used the 4.5 oz packets of "priming sugar" (I think they are corn sugar" that come with the kits I have used. They have been boiled in a cup of water for 5 minutes in a pan with the lid on, then I let the pan cool to room temperature before putting it in a "sanitized" bottling bucket and siphoning from the carboy onto it.

According to the tastybrew.com priming calculator, this is an ok amount for the pale ales I have brewed, although probably on the high side for the porter I brewed. Still, would a touch too much priming sugar cause a gusher problem after 3 months? All of these bottled beers are stored in the back of my closet at room temperature, which is about 76F in the summer and 67F in the winter. Yeah, yeah, I'm a cheapskate on utilities.

I didn't know that lacto could only survive in low ABV environments.

Well, I don't know that either, this is just me repeating what I read someone else say on the forums. Perhaps I am mistaken?

You don't mention any sour milk smell or lemon or vinegar flavors

When the beers get overcarbonated, I can tell that there is something...off...about them. It's hard to pin down exactly what it is. I wouldn't call it distinctly sour or lemony. As soon as I put my nose near them, they have kind of an off smell, and the beer seems to lose all of its flavor character. My exploding beers all get this sort of Belgian-y, not-quite-yeasty flavor regardless of their style. Maybe I'm just tasting the bitterness of the excessive carbon dioxide. None of the homebrewers I hang out with locally have any experience diagnosing beer infections, so I can't get them to identify it by flavor.

I haven't really seen a good guide online towards diagnosing beer infections. I am just suggesting lacto because I have heard that it is the most common infecting agent and because of our milk problem (but maybe that's a coincidence. Perhaps I just need to make sure my housemates don't leave the fridge door open).

It might be worth noting that I work in a biological research lab, although I don't do any cell culture personally. I asked one of my coworkers today for some help, and he suggested that I bring in some beer samples to plate and look for bacterial colony growth. Any suggestions towards further diagnosis would be very appreciated.
 
Couple questions:
1. Do you mill your own grain?
2. Do the bottle caps get boiled?
3. How are you cleaning the bottles?

I'd take Yopper's advice and replace any plastic stuff that touches your beer post boil. If it smells "Belgiany" you might have a brett infection somewhere that your cleaning isn't getting to.

The 4.5oz of corn sugar (not cane sugar right?) should be fine as long as you're sure your beer is done fermenting. Are you taking gravity readings?

Lacto can certainly survive higher then 3%, probably fine up to 8% or more.

Don't give up yet!
 
1. Do you mill your own grain?

I didn't in the first few batches with bottle bombs, but I do now that I switched to partial mashing. Would that cause an infection?

2. Do the bottle caps get boiled?

I soak them in StarSan/OneStep while bottling. The only potentially quirky thing I do when bottling is fill the bottle (that was submerged in a big tub full of other bottles in sanitizing solution) and then place a sanitized cap on top of it. Once I fill all the bottles, then I go through and crimp them all. I read somewhere once that this allowed the beer to degas a bit more if you wait to cap rather than doing it immediately. Plus, it's easier to fill them all and then cap them all. Bad idea?

3. How are you cleaning the bottles?

I rinse the bottles immediately after consuming their contents, then store them in a cabinet. On brew day, they all get a soak in the bathtub for about a half an hour, then I scrub the labels off. Then, they get submerged in a big tub of sanitizing solution (one of those plastic totes for home storage). I pull out the bottles one at a time, pour out the sanitizer, fill them, set the cap on top, and then cap when I've filled them all.

The 4.5oz of corn sugar (not cane sugar right?) should be fine as long as you're sure your beer is done fermenting. Are you taking gravity readings?

I've gotten priming sugar from a few different kit companies, including Brewer's Best and Austin Homebrew Supply. I'm pretty sure but not positive that those are corn sugar. I don't take gravity measurements. I got one of those Beer Thief things that you can put a hydrometer inside of. But, when I put it in my glass carboy, it doesn't submerge to fill high enough to actually take a reading! After enough fussing, I decided I was probably infecting my beer worse with the stupid hydrometer than by leaving it alone.

Every beer I have brewed has had 2-3 weeks in the primary carboy in my fermentation chiller within a couple degrees of 67F, then a minimum of 2 more weeks in the secondary carboy at room temperature (67-76F, depending on the season) before bottling. All have had vigorous fermentation for a few days within 24 hours of pitching the yeast, so I think fermentation should be complete in that amount of time. All of my beers have tasted fine, not too sweet from underfermentation, and all taste like they have the right amount of alcohol. So, while I can't say for 100% sure that fermentation wasn't complete without taking gravity readings, I am skeptical that in that amount of time at those temperatures, primary fermentation ought to be complete.

I just got a new bottling wand the other day (spring loaded...the gravity one was too frustrating and wasteful) but haven't used it yet. I'll try to replace the rest of my plastic soon.
 
I had a pretty similar problem even when i put just 2.5 oz of priming sugar in an ESB. Then I saw a thread talking about taking apart the bottleing bucket spigot. Sure enough when I took the spigot apart there were black little spots.

Since I have cleaned and sanitized it while apart, I have had no new problems.
 
Sounds like your sanitation should be ok. I do the same with filling all my bottles then cap once they are all done. And it sounds like your fermentations should be done after 3 weeks, but a hydrometer never hurts. Your methods all seem sound, so probably just some funky plastic somewhere. Luckily bottling buckets are pretty cheap.

I asked about the milling since there is a lot of lacto on grain husks, so if you mill your grain where you brew a lot of husk dust lands on everything which could be causing infection.
 
Interesting, I never thought about husk dust. I only do partial mashing (~~4-5 # grain bills) at this point, so I don't have loads of dust yet, but that's something to consider in the future.

GreggZ, I think you may have solved my problem!! I had no idea the spigot could even be taken apart until today! For my first two brews, before I moved to glass carboys, I used my now-bottling bucket as my primary fermenter. I have always subscribed to the school of thought that if I run StarSan through it, then anything the beer can touch will be clean. Well, I just heated my spigot in boiling water and then popped it apart. Black mold, everywhere inside the joint! So, I guess that must be what's infecting my beer. I'll be buying a new spigot (and probably a new bottling bucket and hose, while I'm at it) tomorrow. I'm really annoyed that I didn't know the spigot could be taken apart before. It has always annoyed me that I could really wash the little thing, but I assumed that a good dunk in sanitizing solution would clean it up. Guess I was wrong!

Maybe this is a question for a new thread, but now that I'm about to change my bottling equipment, is the bottling bucket with a spigot the way to go? Can I just dump priming solution into my secondary, gently mix it with a stirring rod, then bottle off the autosiphon? If I'm going to upgrade my equipment anyways, is there a better piece of equipment I should be spending my money on? Thanks for your help, all!
 
If you dump the priming solution into secondary and mix you may stir up a bunch of fallen yeast, but it would work. I still use a bottling bucket and just run some hot oxyclean through the valve after each brew. You could also unscrew the valve and drop it into some hot oxyclean to clear any gunk.

I prefer to use the bottling bucket tap so you don't have to use the siphon, you don't have to worry about losing siphon as your level drops and you don't lose any volume to liquid left in the siphon.

There is a great post somewhere around here with tips on bottling, I'll try and drum it up and link to it. I had a fun "why didn't I think of that" moments reading it.
 
Sounds like your sanitation should be ok. I do the same with filling all my bottles then cap once they are all done. And it sounds like your fermentations should be done after 3 weeks, but a hydrometer never hurts. Your methods all seem sound, so probably just some funky plastic somewhere. Luckily bottling buckets are pretty cheap.

I asked about the milling since there is a lot of lacto on grain husks, so if you mill your grain where you brew a lot of husk dust lands on everything which could be causing infection.

Wouldn't the infection be killed during the boil if that were the case?
 
Wouldn't the infection be killed during the boil if that were the case?

Yes, if the dust was in the wort. But not if it was in the top off water, or touching the yeast package, etc. That's why you're not supposed to crush grain where you ferment. I've never had a problem though, so it's good to be cautious, but no need to be overly so.
 
Thanks for the tips, all! I just wanted to clarify that I had been removing my spigot from the bucket and flushing it with sanitizer (lots) before and after bottling, but apparently that wasn't enough. Mold still got in there, didn't get killed by the sanitizer, and somehow got in contact with my wort. My advice for anybody else having similar chronic infection problems is to break down every last piece of your spigot (or throw it away and get another...they cost like $3). Apparently baddies can get into anything, and sometimes what seems like the smallest details can cause the biggest problems.
 
So... did it work? No more bottle bombs after cleaning the spigot? Mold-caused and not lacto???
 
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