Boring Saisons

[dogjam]

Hello all!

I have made a few saisons, most recently with Wyeast 3726 fermented pretty hot (65-70F x 2-3 days, then up to 80F, then up to 85F). They all turn out decent, but not very exciting or complex.

So my question is: how can I make my saisons more interesting, complex, etc.? More like the saisons of De Garde, Sante Adairius, etc.?

-Do I need to introduce some Brett?
-Do I need to ferment hot from the beginning rather than ramping up?
-Do I need oak/adjuncts?

Thanks for any guidance!
DJ

 

[Abrayton]

Rye malt

 

[dmtaylor]

Belle Saison yeast, coriander, grains of paradise. Hell, how about some basil. Pick your herbs and spices, and use tiny amounts that are almost undetectable, just to add indiscernible complexity.

I dislike Bretted saisons, but to each their own. No oak, never oak.

 

[Lefou]

Oaking is for wine and the heavier gravity ales, just my personal opinion.
Bittering or dry hopping outside the classic definition of the style could change things, too.

 

[thehaze]

I've used 3726 and it's anything but boring. I usually ferment Belgian beers at a much higher temperature and especially Saisons. 65-70F for 3 days is too low for my taste. I start at 72-74F and heat it up every day up to 82-85F. They finish rather quickly ( 3726 does not stall and it's reasonably fast for a Saison yeast ).

3726 is fruity, slightly spicy, bubblegummy, almost tropical like. Malted oats, malted Wheat, malted Rye and Spelt are your friends. Keep it simple, do not add specialty malts, and especially Crystal/Caramel malts ( unless you are brewing a Dark (*er) Saison ). Condition for a few weeks/months and it usually gets better with time.

Fruit and spices can be used to enhance the beer, and even oak chips/cubes, gin? ( read somewhere about it, but never used it ).

 

[bucketnative]

65 - 70 F is not "hot". I go with Belle Saison as my usual saison yeast, and I start it in the 80's. Most of the esters are produced early on in the fermentation process. So, try starting hot and finishing hot for more complex flavors. Also, you can slightly underpitch for a greater impact on the growth/reproduction phase during which most of the flavor molecules are imparted upon the beer.

 

[dogjam]

Thanks for all the advice! I'll incorporate some different grains, keep going with the 3726 I harvested from my last batch, and start hot/stay hot for fermentation. Cheers!

 

[BarleyStanding]

I usually use Wyeast 3711, ferment in the mid-high 80s, brings out some nice pepper. Making a pomegranate saison today with the dupont strain (I think it's WLP 565) because they didn't have the 3711 in stock, and will run that in the mid 80's. I've never used the traditional herbs, but tasted some amazing saisons in which they are used. Every few batches I make a hoppy saison with Amarillo, Mosaic, or Galaxy (around 35-40 IBU); it's outside the style but wonderful to drink for a change.

 

[BarleyStanding]

Rye malt

+1

 

[JM-brew]

Depends on your taste and recipe, consider using non traditional (Czech/German) hops. Check out some of Drew Beechum's stuff about saisons. It's pretty interesting

 

[RPh_Guy]

I really like Brett saisons, especially sour saisons ... with oak

Otherwise they're generally boring, frequently too phenolic for my taste, and/or offensively dry. Just my opinion.

 

[mashpaddled]

De Garde spontaneously ferments their beers so you'll have a hard time replicating that with a single sacc strain. Saint Adarius I believe uses a mix of 3726 and lactic acid bacteria so the develop some acidity. Again, not something you'll accomplish with just 3726. Both breweries are oak aging their saisons.

 

[stz]

I've had quite a few when in europe and honestly, the majority of them just taste like a pale ale with fusel alcohols. Hot, sometimes a little burnt rubber. The 'fancy' ones are a confusing bunch, not really meeting my expectation of the style. As a result I suppose I have to admit I just struggle to understand the style. I had one this weekend by a brewery called the kernel which tasted like somebody had thrown a spoon of malic acid into the glass. I never would have associated intense fruit sourness with the style, it wasn't even fruited.

I've made quite a few with belle saison or mangrove jacks. I've used simple grists and gone hot. They are pretty boring. Pale ale with esters, a bit too strong. I've made quite a few with fruit and other silliness. The esters don't really play well with what I want from other ingredients. They aren't strong enough to complete with bold flavours, they don't back up or support anything for me other than very conservative use of spices.

I've half a keg left of a gin botanical infused saison. It is a pretty good example of combining a saison with the flavours of gin. I'm really happy with how it came out, it contains everything you'd expect, it tastes balanced and is still a beer despite being filled with silly things. It isn't very nice, that half a keg has been on since august? Before that I made a blueberry saison which tasted like wine with esters. Blurgh.

I suppose I have to just say I either don't understand the style or never had a 'good' one. I like to imagine a mixed culture farmhouse beer. Pale washy/translucent malt character, slight hints of raw pilsner graininess, sharp, puckering at first, promotes salivation, refreshing pepper spice on the end, leaves the impression of a little dry fruitiness on the finish. That sounds nice. Don't think it is a saison though it is what I like to imagine them as.

 

[couchsending]

Don’t use French Saison yeast
- it’s the most boring Saison yeast

Look to The Yeast Bay for some interesting strains

Ferment it hot from the beginning, esters are produced at the beginning.

Add some Brett. Again the yeast Bay has some amazing strains. Highly recommend TYB-184. It works really quickly and produces a little acidity as well.

Decoction. Or at least step mash. DuPont slowly raises the mash from 118 to 162 over I think a 120 minutes.

Add some oak to primary fermentation. Cubes specifically, 1oz per 5 gallons. French or Hungarian light toast. It’ll add texture more than anything, you wont get much oak flavor. Highly recommend the second half of the 2008 Session podcast with Shea Comfort. Invaluable info on oak!!

Cold condition it for 2-4 weeks before bottling. Try 50*, try 32*

Add some Brett at bottling

Always carb to 3-3.5 vol. Age for a month or two before drinking.

Rye/Spelt/Triticale/Kamut/Faro

 

[dmtaylor]

Wow. I could not disagree more.

It's your beer. Do whatever you want to it.

 

[HomemadeSauce]

@dogjam, I'm curious what your specific process has been. Knowing that could make it easier to troubleshoot. I can't speak to what SARA are doing as unfortunately not tried any of their beers, but de Garde at least are spontaneously fermenting and ageing for a number of years before blending, fruiting, etc. They're more in line with lambic brewing than with saison, and Trevor has been on a handful of podcasts - Sour Hour - talking about their process.

I suppose it depends on what you want to get out of your saison. If it's just a blanket statement of "more complexity" then perhaps building up a mixed culture and long-term ageing (in oak or not) is the way to go. No doubt I love those beers, although saison for me is typically pretty simple - clean, hoppy, dry. Mashing low, using a bunch of low-alpha hops for bittering, larger charges of hops for aroma/dry-hopping, fermenting hot, high carbonation, longer conditioning times, are all things I go for. Recipe construction is usually straight-forward: 75/25 or 80/20 splits for base malt and an adjunct or two; add some acidulated malt if you like.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

My thoughts as a mega Saison fan...

Use good malt. Maybe start with a Belgian pilsner base.
Bring in additional malts for character and feel. Rye, oats, wheat, etc.
Mash low (145-148), let it be the dry/brut that Saison should be.
Use a good yeast strain. Dupont or 3711, at the correct temp (i.e. Dupont around 80, 3711 around 85).
By the time the yeast is chewing hard, the temp should already be up. Higher temps post-ferment do nothing.
Give it time in the fermenter to clean itself up. Don't be in a hurry.
Do NOT over hop it. Some historical Saisons had no hops at all.
Let the yeast esters and phenols be the primary shine.
Practices methods that help avoid bad juju like DMS, diacetyl, and undesirable off flavors.
Bring in spices and other flavors where noticeable but not overpowering.
A light brett or lacto can be nice, don't wipe it out with hardcore sour.
Consider things like coriander, sage, ginger, or fruit. Earthly but floral secondary flavors and aromas.
Note: I generally hate sage in cooking, but a tiny bit with ginger really works well somehow
Try some real Saisons from Belgium and France. Figure out what you like and don't like.
U.S. Saisons generally suck. There's a few good ones but many are morphed into something that doesn't even resemble a Saison.
You may find out that Saisons really are not your thing after all. You might be more of a Belgian or Bier De Garde fan

 

[brownni5]

I tend to over- hop my Saisons - I need to quit doing that, at least at the end. Try Noble or low AA hops to bitter.

I do loves me some rye malt though! Mine get indescribably better after 2 months of cold conditioning.

And try as I might, I can use Dupont yeast, but I can't make it taste like Dupont.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I tend to over- hop my Saisons - I need to quit doing that, at least at the end.

Treat it like a European wheat beer. Maybe 15 to 17 IBU of Saaz or Spalt at 60 minutes and thats it (Liberty actually works really well also). If you must have more hop aroma, maybe 2 to 3 IBU at 5 minutes. The bittering will offset the malt, but I prefer to leave the aroma's fairly hop free, allowing all the other aroma's to hit the nose.

 

[BarleyStanding]

A friend gave me a box of pomegranates around Thanksgiving. I remember a nice pomegranate Saison I had out at Julian Brew Co last summer, so I processed them and added the juice to a saison (similar too the profile SoCal Doug describes) in secondary; it's wonderful, definitely not boring. It seems a lot of local places want to call sours saisons lately and the ester flavors get completely lost in the flavor profile. I enjoy a good sour now and then, but don't want to drink it all the time. The pomegranate adds a nice tart finish without stepping all over the yeast flavours. That's a long walk in the park to say: develop a good base recipe and then think about flavours YOU would enjoy. Make small batches, or split batches and experiment with ingredients. Make sure and record what you're doing so you can scale it up. I think I'm going to experiment with citrus rinds next.

 

[Abrayton]

I do a hibiscus saison using hibiscus petals in the boil and after fermentation. Very nice tartness and color. I really should brew it more than once a year!

 

[Shackleford_rusty]

Most saisons are boring imo unless spices or fruits are added.
Acid malt?
Ive done a Rhubarb saison that was killer, the 'barb added a nice tartness that blended well with the style.
Now i save all my rhubarb for beer, not wine.

 

[Kee]

Brett (Orval dregs in the bottling bucket is the way I do it) not just adds flavor, it seems to smooth out the sharp, citrusy flavor I get from Belle Saison (not my preferred yeast, just the one usually available to me).

Coriander goes really well with this style, but it's a challenge to get the amount right. I'd rather have too little than too much.

 

[BarleyStanding]

Most saisons are boring imo unless spices or fruits are added.
Acid malt?
Ive done a Rhubarb saison that was killer, the 'barb added a nice tartness that blended well with the style.
Now i save all my rhubarb for beer, not wine.

Rhubarb! Never considered it. It's going on the to- do list!

 

[Shackleford_rusty]

Rhubarb! Never considered it. It's going on the to- do list!

It's stellar! I found that 2lbs per 5 gallons in secondary for about 10 days was money. Did you a batch with 5 lb and the same amount of time but was too much, tasted almost too grassy or vegetably.
Also the rhubarb tartness and flavor got more pronounced the more it aged which I almost thought was odd, two to three weeks was Optimum flavor.

 

[stz]

I've been trying to recreate the tart saison of my dreams and getting nowhere fast so far. Two batches got fed stupid things in the hope of making them interesting see how they end up with some time and brett. I've ordered yeast bay saison blend, amalgamation and TYB184. See how I go. The ultimate winner will get aged on prickly pear.

 

[ProblemChild]

I have just brewed a Saison that was Strata to bitter, and Chinook at flame out. took a 36 in competition. Got dinged for the yeast strain (Saisonstein) as the bubblegum came out, but the hop combo worked really well in terms of flavor and complexity without being too hoppy. Next time, will do the same grist and hops with Belle Saison yeast and add a touch of lime peel and maybe sage.

 

[spittybug]

Mangrove Jack M29 and let it go as high as it wants. Great funk.

 

[couchsending]

I've been trying to recreate the tart saison of my dreams and getting nowhere fast so far. Two batches got fed stupid things in the hope of making them interesting see how they end up with some time and brett. I've ordered yeast bay saison blend, amalgamation and TYB184. See how I go. The ultimate winner will get aged on prickly pear.

TyB-184 won’t disappoint. It produces some acidity and will take the pH down to about 3.9 on its own.

3522 primary fermented warm with TYB184 in secondary for a couple months is pretty magical in my book.

 

[thehaze]

I have just brewed a Saison that was Strata to bitter, and Chinook at flame out. took a 36 in competition. Got dinged for the yeast strain (Saisonstein) as the bubblegum came out, but the hop combo worked really well in terms of flavor and complexity without being too hoppy. Next time, will do the same grist and hops with Belle Saison yeast and add a touch of lime peel and maybe sage.

Did they mention why you would be dinged for fruity esters, that are reminiscent of bubblegum? As far as I know, fruiry esters are allowed in a Saison according t-o t-h-e B-J-C-P. Or is bubblegum not a fruity ester?

 

[rembikjazz]

I've done rye saison on M29 with grapefruit peel, lemongrass, 3 types of basil. It's "green" but perfect so mine, Citron notes maskin farmhouse smell

 

[ProblemChild]

Did they mention why you would be dinged for fruity esters, that are reminiscent of bubblegum? As far as I know, fruiry esters are allowed in a Saison according t-o t-h-e B-J-C-P. Or is bubblegum not a fruity ester?

I have read conflicting reports on whether onr not bubblegum is considered an off flavor, but the majority seems to indicate it is. Two competitions, two dings for bubblegum. Fermentation was a decent sized starter and fermented at 75F. Seems to be a character of that yeast. I love it personally - so will brew it for myself - just not for competition

 

[rmolledo]

Ferment in the garage warm, up to 90 degrees is ok. Orange peel, coriander, black pepper corns, grains of paradise, belgian candy sugar [emoji108]