Boil time

[abbysdad2006]

Hi everyone, I have a question I have never really thought about until now.

Do you start your brew timer after the hot break, or, do you start it at the first sign of a boil? Example: 60 min boil, do you start the 60 min after the hot break, or at first sign of boil?

I've always started my time at the first sign of a boil. Thoughts?

 

[Keith81]

I wait until after the hot break, or more specifically, when adding the 60 min hop addition (assuming there is one). This way I can focus on avoiding a boil over.

 

[Jag75]

First sign of boil for me.

 

[bleme]

Timer starts when the first hops go in, because that is all that really matters.

 

[davidabcd]

First sign of boil.

 

[Jag75]

Timer starts when the first hops go in, because that is all that really matters.

Do you put your hops in before the boil starts?

 

[bleme]

Do you put your hops in before the boil starts?

I have done first-wort-hops before, but it is pretty uncommon for me.
Sometimes I scoop off the hot break, add hops, and start the timer.
Sometimes I boil until I get down to a desired volume, add hops and start the timer.
Sometimes, if I am short on time, I'll just boil water, add the hops, start the timer, and add extract after flame-out.
Ignoring the special case of first wort hops, the timer starts when the hops go in because my wort doesn't really care what time it is.

 

[pvpeacock]

When boil starts and hot break sinks. I usually put the first hops in after the sparge and before it begins to boil.

 

[eric19312]

When the boiling wort clears a decent patch on the surface I will add my hops and start the timer.

 

[abbysdad2006]

Looks like there's no "right" way of doing it. Interesting.

 

[grampamark]

Looks like there's no "right" way of doing it. Interesting.

We’re making beer, not cancer drugs. There is no right or wrong way (although there are a few folks who get pretty close to the “my way or the highway” attitude at times ). Boil time is probably one of the least critical aspects of brewing, at least from the standpoint of determining an exact amount of time. Start the timer at the first sign of a boil or start it at the 60 minute hop addition.That’s, maybe, 5 minutes. Boiling for a substantially longer or shorter time, say, 45 or 90 minutes, will affect the total volume boiled off, which will, in turn, affect all subsequent volumes, which will affect the final gravity, ABV, and brewhouse efficiency. A few minutes either way, at the beginning of the boil, however, isn’t going make a difference.

 

[mashpaddled]

I start when the hot break has split and the threat of boilover has ended. I've always done it that way because once I didn't need to worry about moving the pot off the burner then my hands were free to add bittering hops and start the timer.

I generally agree there is not a right or wrong answer here. An exception might be if you use software to calculate your recipes and you are adding hops at the start of the boil and not really at full boiling temperature at the time you start the clock and add the hops. You might be missing some isomerization if the wort is not at actual boiling temperatures. I would be curious to see what temperatures read when you see first sign of boiling. I've never checked personally. Even still, the difference in IBUs is probably not substantial unless you are starting the clock at a temperature far below actual boil for your elevation and it takes a long time to reach actual boiling temperatures.

 

[RM-MN]

I think you are all doing it wrong.

I wait for the boil and some of the foam to subside, slowly add the hops because sometimes that causes more foam and I have wort almost to the top of the pot, then when the last of the hops are added, I start my timer for 30 minutes. Yes, only 30 minutes because I get adequate bittering from the hops with that much time and then have an extra 30 minutes to do something else. I've read that 90% of the bittering happens in the first 30 minutes and I can't taste the difference between the two.

 

[bucketnative]

Looks like there's no "right" way of doing it. Interesting.

For any given process, consistency is the key. Keep your measurement methods consistent, and you will be starting on the right foot for process improvement and a better product.

 

[hottpeper13]

Skinning the cat! I boil for 90 min on every batch so that when I use pils malt I get rid of the dreaded DMS. So at the first sign of a boil I put on a 30 min timer, then go from there for the hop additions.

 

[bracconiere]

Looks like there's no "right" way of doing it. Interesting.

being that my boils go on for 3-4 hours....i just guess how much longer i have to boil off, and toss in the hops when i 'feel' it's right....i suppose for you adults, kinda like making love...

 

[kh54s10]

I wait for the chance of boil over to pass, add the 60 minute hops and start the timer. Or start the timer then if there is no 60 min hop addition.

How long the hops get boiled is the determining factor. If you start the timer at the first sign of a boil and it takes 10 minutes for the foam to subside enough that adding the hops will not cause a boil over then you are really using a 50 minute hop time and will get slightly less bittering from that addition.

 

[kh54s10]

being that my boils go on for 3-4 hours....i just guess how much longer i have to boil off, and toss in the hops when i 'feel' it's right....i suppose for you adults, kinda like making love...

3-4 hours? What are you making??? If I boiled for 4 hours the kettle would run dry!!!

 

[Brooothru]

Skinning the cat! I boil for 90 min on every batch so that when I use pils malt I get rid of the dreaded DMS. So at the first sign of a boil I put on a 30 min timer, then go from there for the hop additions.

From what I've been reading from LoDO fora, the best way to cure DMS woes isn't an extended boil but rather the prevention of DMS precursors. According to their philosophy, without oxygen present these precursors never develop. Ergo, no DMS. To prevent oxygen uptake during the boil (assuming there had been adequate prevention during the mash to minimize 02) requires a gentle boil rather than a roiling boil for 90 minutes.

I used to have serious issues with VDKs and diacetyl before I started trying this method, and I'm convinced they're on to something. No negative comments from judges since I went to 75 minute gentle boils for both lagers and ales, along with as many 'practical' LoDO methodologies (both hot and cold side), and I still get a solid hot break.

Oh, by the way. Start timing after hot break occurs!

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

DMS is produced (mainly) during the boil. It is not present in malt, but its precursor, SMM, may be. It was more common in older Pilsner malts. It is destroyed during killing of all but the palest malts, and even most modern Pilsner malts are carefully kilned to eliminate or reduce it. To handle it in the kettle, a long or vigorous boil is not necessary. Never is. This will only cause other problems like dull malt flavors, poor body and foam, and rapidly accelerated staling. SMM must be converted to DMS before it can be eliminated. At a kettle pH of around 5.4, 30 minutes at a low simmer with the lid on will accomplish this. Then only about 10 minutes of a low simmer partly uncovered, providing sufficient circulation so that every bit of the wort is at some point exposed at the surface, will suffice to expel the DMS. You will probably need a longer boil just to utilize your bittering hops than to deal with DMS, so there is no need to take special measures when brewing with Pilsner malt. I do brew with LoDO methods, and minimizing thermal stress on wort (low-intensity, short boil) is a major part of addressing many aspects of both initial beer quality and long term stability, but oxygen itself does not play a direct role in the evolution of SMM and DMS. But do like the Brooo Brother says. Turn down that volcano and see how surprised you are with the results!

 

[Robert65]

Oh and just to be clear regarding @Brooothru's observations: diacetyl is a VDK, a fermentation product. DMS is not.

 

[Brooothru]

At a kettle pH of around 5.4, 30 minutes at a low simmer with the lid on will accomplish this.

This was the part that left me a bit dubious when I started reading about LoDO, especially the "lid on" during boil, since it flies in the face of the common dogma of brewing. I had always heard, "90 minutes of a vigorous boil with the lid OFF." Turns out not to be so.

You will probably need a longer boil just to utilize your bittering hops than to deal with DMS

This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and is why I use a 75 minute boil. Might have to consider shortening it up a bit. Even a gentle boil reintroduces 02 back into solution rather than "driving off the DMS with a strong boil" which was (is) accepted as gospel.

These days I mash with the grain bed fully submerged and a gentle recirculation with a mash cap in place to prevent splashing. I no longer sparge and do a gentle boil with a domed lid, vented, but still in place. The positive difference in the finished beers has been quite noticeable, especially as regards long term stability.

Brooo Brother

 

[bracconiere]

3-4 hours? What are you making??? If I boiled for 4 hours the kettle would run dry!!!

high altitude 10 gal batches....i start with ~13.5 gallons boil it down to 10....takes FOREVER at 4,500ft.....i remember the good ol' days of 1 hour boils.....at 1k ft....(now, when it comes to a boil, i take a nap, and then when i get up, it's about time to add the hops, lol)

 

[kh54s10]

high altitude 10 gal batches....i start with ~13.5 gallons boil it down to 10....takes FOREVER at 4,500ft.....i remember the good ol' days of 1 hour boils.....at 1k ft....(now, when it comes to a boil, i take a nap, and then when i get up, it's about time to add the hops, lol)

I wouldn't think it would take that long even at that altitude. 13 feet above sea level here......

 

[bracconiere]

I wouldn't think it would take that long even at that altitude. 13 feet above sea level here......

gotta drink more to get a buzz here too......and 13 feet? aren't you worried about waves? or do you live on a house boat? lol

 

[Qhrumphf]

This was the part that left me a bit dubious when I started reading about LoDO, especially the "lid on" during boil, since it flies in the face of the common dogma of brewing. I had always heard, "90 minutes of a vigorous boil with the lid OFF." Turns out not to be so.



This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and is why I use a 75 minute boil. Might have to consider shortening it up a bit. Even a gentle boil reintroduces 02 back into solution rather than "driving off the DMS with a strong boil" which was (is) accepted as gospel.

These days I mash with the grain bed fully submerged and a gentle recirculation with a mash cap in place to prevent splashing. I no longer sparge and do a gentle boil with a domed lid, vented, but still in place. The positive difference in the finished beers has been quite noticeable, especially as regards long term stability.

Brooo Brother

Much of the conventional homebrew knowledge is, simply, wrong.

Completely covered boils with a condensate catch have been a fixture in pro kettles for quite some time.

The only thing I boil longer than an hour is a turbid mash.

I also add hops just *before* boil. As it starts churning the hops break surface tension and keep the foaming and boilover risk down. As soon as boil starts, timer starts.

 

[Tallgrass]

I start the timer when I add 60 min hops which is anywhere over 200 degrees.

I ran out of propane last time and only managed a 10 min boil. The tank gave me a small flame longer than I thought it would and kept the wort above 200. The 60 min hops became 45 and followed the rest of the schedule. It just went in the fridge but first taste seems promising.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Can we clarify: what is "hot break"?

My understanding is that the foam is not hot break, but rather hot break is visible as clumps in the wort and forms about 10 minutes into the boil.

 

[Brooothru]

Can we clarify: what is "hot break"?

My understanding is that the foam is not hot break, but rather hot break is visible as clumps in the wort and forms about 10 minutes into the boil.

View attachment 650754

Yeah, I always thought it was the stuff that looks like the 'floaters' in Egg Drop and Hot & Sour soups, which I guess is coagulated protein anyway.

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

Can we clarify: what is "hot break"?

My understanding is that the foam is not hot break, but rather hot break is visible as clumps in the wort and forms about 10 minutes into the boil.

View attachment 650754

Indeed. Hot break (and cold break) is stuff you want to coagulate and remove from your beer.

The foam that kicks up in the boil is just that, foam, which you do not want to remove from your beer.

The thing with the proteins that make up beer foam is that they only get to form foam once. So foam at the start of the boil is potential foam lost from your beer. Likewise foam during transfers, aeration, fermentation, packaging, and so on. So any chance you have to avoid a lot of foam means better head on the beer. Use of anti foam (Fermcap S) in the boil and elsewhere is a common commercial practice homebrewers for some reason rarely take advantage of.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Indeed. Hot break (and cold break) is stuff you want to coagulate and remove from your beer.

The foam that kicks up in the boil is just that, foam, which you do not want to remove from your beer.

The thing with the proteins that make up beer foam is that they only get to form foam once. So foam at the start of the boil is potential foam lost from your beer. Likewise foam during transfers, aeration, fermentation, packaging, and so on. So any chance you have to avoid a lot of foam means better head on the beer. Use of anti foam (Fermcap S) in the boil and elsewhere is a common commercial practice homebrewers for some reason rarely take advantage of.

Except legally Fermcap S must be filtered. Commercial breweries who don't filter can't legally use it. Of course that doesn't always stop people.

 

[Robert65]

Except legally Fermcap S must be filtered. Commercial breweries who don't filter can't legally use it. Of course that doesn't always stop people.

It is also removed by precipitation with the yeast even in unfiltered beer, as noted in application information from the manufacturers I have read. Legal requirements are not always based on actual necessity. Similarly, PVPP legally must be removed by filtration in some jurisdictions, but of course its very virtue is that it precipitates. Homebrewers can comfortably use such products without filtration.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It is also removed by precipitation with the yeast even in unfiltered beer, as noted in application information from the manufacturers I have read. Legal requirements are not always based on actual necessity. Similarly, PVPP legally must be removed by filtration in some jurisdictions, but of course its very virtue is that it precipitates. Homebrewers can comfortably use such products without filtration.

Yes, no issues with homebrewers at all. Rather just pointing out that it's not universal commercially, at least among smaller guys since FDA/TTB requirements are what they are.

 

[SEndorf]

I do 90 minute boils and start my timer at the first sign of churn.
There is no "right way", but you must be consistent to calculate your boil off.
There is a difference between "foam" and "foop" (the thick gunk rising at the hot break). Foam is inconsequential. Foop, I scoop.

 

[balrog]

I wait for the boil and some of the foam to subside, slowly add the hops because sometimes that causes more foam

This. Boiling chips from chemistry class; hops give nucleation points and inevitably make more foam with me.

the hops break surface tension and keep the foaming and boilover risk down

Boy does my sticky, messy, garage floor like the sound of this!

you must be consistent to calculate your boil off

This to infinity.

 

[kh54s10]

I also add hops just *before* boil. As it starts churning the hops break surface tension and keep the foaming and boilover risk down. As soon as boil starts, timer starts.

This hasn't been my experience... For me it has been add the hops before the foam has subsided = foam eruption!!!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

This hasn't been my experience... For me it has been add the hops before the foam has subsided = foam eruption!!!!

This is why I don't wait until it's boiling (I'll add em a few defrees shy, like 208-210F near sea level). If the hops are already dispersed and saturated they're not gonna nucleate like they would actually at boil. Hot break does not factor into my timing at all. Hell, if I start the boil without hops, I'm MORE likely to get a boilover. This has been my experience when trying to do hop bursted/whirlpool only type beers.

 

[kh54s10]

This is why I don't wait until it's boiling (I'll add em a few defrees shy, like 208-210F near sea level). If the hops are already dispersed and saturated they're not gonna nucleate like they would actually at boil. Hot break does not factor into my timing at all. Hell, if I start the boil without hops, I'm MORE likely to get a boilover. This has been my experience when trying to do hop bursted/whirlpool only type beers.

I don't know what the temperature actually was, I added the hops at the very first sign of wort bubbling through the foam. Instant boil over. Never did that again. Did a few first wort hop brews. When adding more hops, yes after the foam subsided...., Foam explosion.

Guess I need to try someday at a lower temperature...before reaching a boil??? I will be ready for a boilover.

BTW, most of my boil overs occurred while perusing HBT and not watching the pot!!!!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Oh and just to be clear regarding @Brooothru's observations: diacetyl is a VDK, a fermentation product. DMS is not.

At least via standard sacch. IIRC some bacteria can throw DMS as well as diacetyl (perhaps metabolising any residual SMM? I don't recall), perhaps some wild yeast as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

some bacteria can throw DMS as well as diacetyl [...], perhaps some wild yeast as well.

For what it's worth, I have heard that too, but I don't know the mechanism (or know if it's really true).