Black IPA - how much roast is too much?

[stratslinger]

I'm working on a Black IPA recipe, and my first draft is a scaled down version of an Imperial Black IPA recipe I found floating around HBT somewhere.

Anyway, I used some tips I gleaned around here to scale the Imperial down to "normal strength" by only scaling the base malt. And that brought the roast malts (Carafa III and Chocolate) from a combined 8% of the grist to a smidge over 15%!

That sounds like a scary amount of roast for an IPA to me. Am I correct to be rethinking that amount of Roast malts, or might it be appropriate?

For reference, the grist right now looks something like:
68.3% 2-row
8.0% chocolate
7.3% Carafa III
7.3% Crystal 80
9.1% Sugar (hoping to dry things out just a bit)

I'm thinking about swapping the chocolate for midnight wheat, to get the color and less roast presence...

 

[Double_D]

I keep my carafa III to 5% and only add it at the end of the mash while vorlaufing. I think there's going to be some debate as what it right. But my .02 is the smallest amount of roast possible.

 

[m00ps]

Definitely swap out the chocolate. That is going to be a hoppy stout

IMO, there really isnt a point in doing cIII and midnight wheat. Just pick one. They both are trying to accomplish the same thing. I prefer midnight wheat since its darker, less roasty, and I have reason to believe it may help a bti with head retention

I also have found that adding msot of the black malts just for mashout helps minimize roast even further

 

[BowAholic]

just to compare- I'm brewing one right now with the following ingredients. I've brewed this recipe several times and it's one of my favorite.
11.5# 2 Row
.5# Cara 80L
.375# Carafa III
.375# Chocolate Malt
1# Sugar

 

[sabrams86]

The trick with black IPAs is that they can vary so much in style. m00ps is right, that chocolate starts to push it more into the direction of a stout with lots of hops. If you're looking for the body of an IPA but just with the touch of roastiness and black color, cut down on the chocolate and just depend on the carafa for your color. If you like the way some imperial IPAs have a heavy and sweeter body, I'd say you're on the right track. As for switching with midnight wheat, I believe that moves more in the direction of the Wookey Jack recipe minus the Rye if you're familiar with it.

 

[stratslinger]

Well, I wound up going with the midnight wheat, instead of the chocolate, and took the recommendation to add the dark malts at the very end of the mash. The color was beautiful, the aroma of the wort definitely not roasty the way a stout tends to be, but there is a hint in there. I'm eager to see where this one finishes up.

 

[stratslinger]

Circling back on this one - I just made the dry hop addition a couple nights ago. The roast character in the beer is definitely there, though not nearly at stout/porter levels. Sadly, it appears to be just enough there to overwhelm the hops. I'm hoping my dry hop additions are enough to help it out - I'll be kegging it this weekend and force carbing it so I can get a fully carbed sample some time early next week.

 

[atom]

what was your hop schedule? For me, a black IPA is not simply a dark colored IPA. it needs a slight amount of roast/chocolate character, but the hops still need to dominate. I prefer a dry IPA, but a black IPA needs a bit more body.

 

[stratslinger]

Trying not to get too much more detail out there, as this is for a club competition and I don't want to influence any of the folks I know post here. But there enough in a small FWH addition plus a large 5 minute addition for beersmith to estimate a BU:GU ratio of a little over 1.0 - so it should be in reasonable IPA territory...

 

[stratslinger]

OK, circling back once more... After 4 or 5 days on dry hops, I kegged it up and force carbed it while I was away for a week or so. The dry hops definitely helped shift the roast into the background, but I'm not overly pleased with the overall flavor/aroma of the hops. It's just kind of generically hoppy, instead of distinctly citrusy, which is more or less what I was going for. That may be partially the interaction of the hops and the roast... The competition this is for is coming up pretty quickly, so I can be less vague soon, if anyone wants the details of the hops included.

I'm looking forward to trying my partner's half, as we used different yeasts and different dry hops, so it should be interesting to see what differences there are between the two.

 

[m00ps]

post your hop schedule and maybe we can help out for next time. You definitely arent alone in the "generically hoppy" department

 

[Firewalker11]

I'm working on a Black IPA recipe, and my first draft is a scaled down version of an Imperial Black IPA recipe I found floating around HBT somewhere.

Anyway, I used some tips I gleaned around here to scale the Imperial down to "normal strength" by only scaling the base malt. And that brought the roast malts (Carafa III and Chocolate) from a combined 8% of the grist to a smidge over 15%!

That sounds like a scary amount of roast for an IPA to me. Am I correct to be rethinking that amount of Roast malts, or might it be appropriate?

For reference, the grist right now looks something like:
68.3% 2-row
8.0% chocolate
7.3% Carafa III
7.3% Crystal 80
9.1% Sugar (hoping to dry things out just a bit)

I'm thinking about swapping the chocolate for midnight wheat, to get the color and less roast presence...

I am drinking mine right now, here was my grain bill:

MASH INGREDIENTS
- 11.5 lbs. Rahr 2-row pale
- .5 lbs. Briess Caramel 80L
- .375 lbs. Weyermann Carafa III
- .375 lbs. English Chocolate Malt

Its not at all sweet, finished at 1.014 with Safale US-05 yeast. I like your recipe except for the sugar...

 

[stratslinger]

OK, finally circling back on this with the hop details - the bracket comp this was entered in was held last Sunday, and my brew partner and I came away with a resounding win.

Anyway, in addition to the grain bill listed above, for an 11 gallon batch we used:
1.3oz Simcoe, First Wort Addition
3oz Amarillo, 5 min
3oz Citra, 5 min
3oz Pacific Jade, 5 min

Half was fermented with US05 and dryhopped with an ounce each of Cascade, Citra, Pacific Jade, and Mandarina Bavaria
the other half was fermented with Wyeast British Ale and dryhopped with 2oz each of Citra and Amarillo (I liked this version slightly better)