Bitter taste

[resif]

Hi everyone!
I'm not a beginner in making mead but everytime I make it even after a lot of months and years of aging and with different yeasts or type of honeys and quantities I always have a bitter taste on my meads.
The only thing they have in common is that I can't filter them properly so there's some residual yeast at the bottom of every bottles.
Could it be the yeast left at the bottom that makes that bitter taste?

Thanks!

 

[Seamonkey84]

Bitter as in acidic or another sort of off flavor? Are you using nutrients?

 

[resif]

It's hard to explain but I don't think it's as in acidic because the product isn't gone.
Yes I am using nutrients but there was that bitter flavour even when I didn't use nutrients for other batches.

 

[Seamonkey84]

I guess I’m confusing bitter and sour/tart like lemons. My bad, Im thinking along the lines of acidic wines can taste sour or tart without being vinegar.

 

[resif]

I can confirm that's not sour

 

[CKuhns]

Hmmm, you said you were using different honey, yeasts and different nutrient protocols. What about water? Municipal Tap, well, store bought spring, distilled or RO?

Bitter or tart tends to be a pH problem. Do you add calcium carbonate at the start of ferment? Target a pH of 3.7 to 4.6 and check the pH when primary is done. If too acidic sweeten to maybe adjust the pH again. If still off try some tannens and a little vanilla.

 

[CKuhns]

Sorry, working on my tablet and cant seem to edit. Ignore the word "sweeten" in the last sentence.

 

[Shine0n]

How dry is it or the others that have the same issue?

 

[resif]

Hmmm, you said you were using different honey, yeasts and different nutrient protocols. What about water? Municipal Tap, well, store bought spring, distilled or RO?

Bitter or tart tends to be a pH problem. Do you add calcium carbonate at the start of ferment? Target a pH of 3.7 to 4.6 and check the pH when primary is done. If too acidic sweeten to maybe adjust the pH again. If still off try some tannens and a little vanilla.

I tried tap water (getting rid of chlorine of course), natural spilled water and bottles too.
Reading thouroughly your reply I got that maybe I make some errors on my recipe so that's my process:
1) Put honey and water on the right temperature and pour the yeast activated following the instructions provided;
2) Add nutrients
3) Everyday for 4 days I add nutrients at every batch
4) As soon as the fermentation weakens I pour the wine in a different vessel till the yeast activity stops
5) Put the mead insto bottles

I don't pay attention on gravity levels because I just want to reach the alcohol that the yeast can reach.
I just pay attention on temperatures to make the yeast work at its best.

Do you mean that I should check the PH before pouring the wine in a second vessel, adjust it with some tartaric or citric acid and then pour it?

 

[resif]

How dry is it or the others that have the same issue?

Unfortunately it happens for every amount of honey I use

 

[bernardsmith]

But it sounds like you are treating the mead almost as if you were brewing beer. Initialy I was surprised when you said that there was yeast at the bottom of every bottle. That's what brewers look for but wine makers tend to allow their wines (and by extension their mead) to age quietly in the carboy for months (and occasionally longer) and they rack their mead off the lees over that aging period and when they come to bottle - typically - even after a year or more in the bottle there is virtually no sediment. You appear to be bottling while sediment is still dropping so you are bottling very early... perhaps too early.

That, and I wonder if the tartness is caused a) by the presence of CO2 which will tend to create carbonic acid and the gas itself tends to be perceived as tart and b) your perception of ethanol (the alcohol) itself. You don't suggest that you stabilize the wine and so back sweeten it... and perhaps you love dry mead but dry mead and wine is in fact not something that mosty people truly love. Our culture's preference is for sweeter rather than drier wines and meads (Oh folk claim to love dry wine but what they buy is sweet... ) Bottom line: have you tried back sweetening your mead? Adding some sweeteness may completely transform your experience with your meads...

 

[resif]

Thank you for your kind reply!

You appear to be bottling while sediment is still dropping so you are bottling very early... perhaps too early.

I know I should get rid of the sediment but the problem is that I hadn't got anything efficient to do that so it happened theyeast to sediment but not because I look forward to have it. I bought a filter machine some days ago so next batch will be without sediments for sure!
This is my question: could the sediment cause that bitter flavour?

That, and I wonder if the tartness is caused a) by the presence of CO2 which will tend to create carbonic acid and the gas itself tends to be perceived as tart and b) your perception of ethanol (the alcohol) itself. You don't suggest that you stabilize the wine and so back sweeten it... and perhaps you love dry mead but dry mead and wine is in fact not something that mosty people truly love. Our culture's preference is for sweeter rather than drier wines and meads (Oh folk claim to love dry wine but what they buy is sweet... ) Bottom line: have you tried back sweetening your mead? Adding some sweeteness may completely transform your experience with your meads...

No gas in my bottles but there's a perception of ethanol for sure even at 13% of alcohol.
I've never tried to back sweeten my meads because I don't know how to do that: is that just a simple addition of honey in the mead?

Thank you so much!

 

[bernardsmith]

Back sweetening is quite simple. First you should rack the mead off the yeast. The less the amount of viable yeast cells in your mead the easier it is to stabilize the mead. You might chill the mead and after a day or so in the fridge rack the mead from the fermenter into a similar sized container. The yeast will tend to drop to the bottom while in the fridge and if you rack (siphon ) from a little above the sediment you will not siphon in those yeast cells.
Assuming you have essentially removed most of the active yeast you can then add in tandem - both K-meta and K-sorbate. I would wait a day or so and now you can add whatever sweeteners you want because now the yeast cannot reproduce and those left cannot ferment any further. Any sugar you add will add only sweetness.

That said, 13% ABV is not a session drink. Ethanol has a sharp taste and it is that taste that you may not like... Adding sweetness can help balance the mead.. and balance is at the very heart of wine making..

 

[JimRausch]

This is my question: could the sediment cause that bitter flavour?

Short answer- yes it could.
You don't need filtering equipment. In fact I'm sure most of us don't have any. I do something I read from Yooper: every time the lees are 1/4 or more, rack into a new container. Add 1 camden tab at every other racking to help control oxygenation. For me, this has usually meant 3-4 rackings over a 2-3 month period. I bottle only when there are no more lees and everything is crystal clear.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

"Add 1 camden tab at every other racking to help control oxygenation."

This is a point I noticed: No mention of camden.:

"1) Put honey and water on the right temperature and pour the yeast activated following the instructions provided;
2) Add nutrients
3) Everyday for 4 days I add nutrients at every batch
4) As soon as the fermentation weakens I pour the wine in a different vessel till the yeast activity stops
5) Put the mead into bottles"

I always add all my ingredients *except* the yeast, on the first day, and one crushed camden pellet per gallon. Then I pitch the yeast the *second* day, after the camden has had time to work.

So, it's possible the taste he's noticing is due to some local bacteria or wild yeast.

Alternatively: How much nutrient are you adding? It sounds like you're adding the yeast nutrient five times. Which is fine, but did you take the recommended dose, and divide by five? You might just be way overdosing it with yeast nutrient.

Take a bit of the yeast nutrient, dissolve it in water, and have a taste. (It's not toxic!) Is that the bitter taste you're noticing?

 

[resif]

Last week I did a couple of batch of mead and the yeasts are working now.
I want to thank you for your advices because they lead me to other tips that I didn't know (like potassium carbonate/potassium bicarbonate) and more.

Alternatively: How much nutrient are you adding? It sounds like you're adding the yeast nutrient five times. Which is fine, but did you take the recommended dose, and divide by five? You might just be way overdosing it with yeast nutrient.

Take a bit of the yeast nutrient, dissolve it in water, and have a taste. (It's not toxic!) Is that the bitter taste you're noticing?

Your're right but there was that bitter taste even when I didn't use nutrients.
Anyway I took you up on that and I tried nutrients with water and that's not the same taste (that's good ).
I used 15 gr (0,03 lb) of nutrients divided in 4 days.

 

[resif]

Hi guys,
I was thinking about my actual batch and suddenly I thought something about the process of clarification.
When the yeast stop working (about a couple of weeks, it depends I know) in primary fermentation, I move the mead in another container (sanitized, etc...) trying to remove some lees of the yeast, so the mead starts clarifing by itself and other lees will lay down there in some weeks or months then I move the mead in another container or in bottles removing all the lees left by the secondary fermentation.
Is that correct or can this process let the lees to release that bitter taste?

Just now I have a couple of batch: the first is still working on primary and the latter is in secondary with some lees too even if I remove some of them after the primary fermentation.

Thanks!

 

[Blacksmith1]

Rule of thumb is to rack your brew any time you have 1/4 inch or more of lees.

 

[Miraculix]

Rule of thumb is to rack your brew any time you have 1/4 inch or more of lees.

This is completely detrimental to your brew. It removes active yeast and makes life hard for the remaining yeast.

Leave it on the yeast till it is done.

No racking before fg has been reached.

 

[Seamonkey84]

I keep it on the original lees until it’s done fermenting. When I use buckets for whole fruits in brew bags, I rack into a carboy when I pull the fruit. I give it a gentle stir to mix and degas it a bit, and rack every thing into the carboy. The only stuff left behind is the solids that settled during the racking process. It’s really just finishing up the primary in a carboy, then racking to secondary once it clears.

 

[Miraculix]

I keep it on the original lees until it’s done fermenting. When I use buckets for whole fruits in brew bags, I rack into a carboy when I pull the fruit. I give it a gentle stir to mix and degas it a bit, and rack every thing into the carboy. The only stuff left behind is the solids that settled during the racking process. It’s really just finishing up the primary in a carboy, then racking to secondary once it clears.

That's how it should be done accoding to today's best practice ie. TOSNA etc.

 

[Yooper]

This is completely detrimental to your brew. It removes active yeast and makes life hard for the remaining yeast.

Leave it on the yeast till it is done.

No racking before fg has been reached.

You can rack it when you have lees 1/4" thick or more anytime, as the yeast that has flocculated out is not active or it wouldn't have fallen out.

However, usually my meads are pretty close to FG within 7 days or so, so leaving it the lees that long won't hurt it. For me, I rack when the mead is about 1.010 or so, so it's still active when I rack it to the next carboy which helps have a protective effect from risk of oxidation. After that, I will rack when there are lees 1/4" thick or more (like in a melomel) or after 60 days if there aren't that many lees.

 

[Miraculix]

You can rack it when you have lees 1/4" thick or more anytime, as the yeast that has flocculated out is not active or it wouldn't have fallen out.

However, usually my meads are pretty close to FG within 7 days or so, so leaving it the lees that long won't hurt it. For me, I rack when the mead is about 1.010 or so, so it's still active when I rack it to the next carboy which helps have a protective effect from risk of oxidation. After that, I will rack when there are lees 1/4" thick or more (like in a melomel) or after 60 days if there aren't that many lees.

That is not correct. The yeast falls out of solution because the force applied to the yeast by the speed of the moving liquid is lower than the force which attracts yeast cells to stick to each other. The liquid moves less when fermentation slows down, this is when yeast starts to drop out. It drops out because of less movement of the liquid. That is why it is generally recommended, by all the modern protocols to stir or "degass" the fermenting liquid multiple times a day, to keep yeast in suspension. This is how you ensure that all the yeast has permanent contact to the sugars and available nutrients and keep them as healthy as possible. By removing it, you are limiting the number of active yeast, slowing down the fermentation process, potentially stressing the remaining yeast more than they should be and also remove possible cleaner for off flavours.

This has been discussed in depth with @loveofrose multiple times in his BOMM thread and elsewhere, but I do not know where exactly.

 

[Yooper]

That is not correct. The yeast falls out of solution because the force applied to the yeast by the speed of the moving liquid is lower than the force which attracts yeast cells to stick to each other. The liquid moves less when fermentation slows down, this is when yeast starts to drop out. It drops out because of less movement of the liquid. That is why it is generally recommended, by all the modern protocols to stir or "degass" the fermenting liquid multiple times a day, to keep yeast in suspension. This is how you ensure that all the yeast has permanent contact to the sugars and available nutrients and keep them as healthy as possible. By removing it, you are limiting the number of active yeast, slowing down the fermentation process, potentially stressing the remaining yeast more than they should be and also remove possible cleaner for off flavours.

We'll just have to agree to disagree- I do degas daily. Since I reach FG in 5-7 days, I'm pretty sure I don't "slow down the fermentation process" or "stress the remaining yeast" nor do I have off flavors.

I've been doing this for 30 years, and some of my techniques change as time goes on, but this is a definite "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I do have some medals and ribbons to prove the 'no off flavors' statement.

 

[Miraculix]

We'll just have to agree to disagree- I do degas daily. Since I reach FG in 5-7 days, I'm pretty sure I don't "slow down the fermentation process" or "stress the remaining yeast" nor do I have off flavors.

I've been doing this for 30 years, and some of my techniques change as time goes on, but this is a definite "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I do have some medals and ribbons to prove the 'no off flavors' statement.

I did not say that your way has to produce off flavours, I said that the no racking till fg method has less chance to produce off flavours and I explained why. This is common consensus between all modern staggered nutrient protocols.

Things get optimised with time, this is one of the optimisation steps that was braught up.

And on another, less scientific note, why would I want to waste mead every time I rack?

 

[Yooper]

And on another, less scientific note, why would I want to waste mead every time I rack?

????? Why would anybody want to waste mead?

 

[resif]

Thank you but...I didn't get it.
Should I remove the lees after the first fermentation's done or when the clarification process is done (so secondary fermentation)?

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you but...I didn't get it.
Should I remove the lees after the first fermentation's done or when the clarification process is done (so secondary fermentation)?

There is no first fermentation. There is only fermentation. You keep stirring/shaking the lees up multiple times a day until the fermentation is finished. Then you let it clear and then rack and bulk age or directly bottle. Google tosna protocol for more details.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I learned my methodology from @Yooper when I started brewing. It has worked fine for me with only one batch failing to be up to par. That was my first cider, and it needed nutrients which I didn't have. I'm an old guy who firmly believes newer and /or faster doesn't always mean better. This way has worked for a few thousand years, and I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. Besides I do this for fun, not to cause myself extra stress trying to get the tonsa right when the timing will not be the exact same on any two brews.

 

[Yooper]

Thank you but...I didn't get it.
Should I remove the lees after the first fermentation's done or when the clarification process is done (so secondary fermentation)?

You can see that we differ in our opinions and techniques, so apparently this isn't one right answer here. I would rack from the first vessel into a secondary when primary fermentation slows or ends. As long as your fermentation is on track, it should be within about a week or 10 days but could be longer.

 

[resif]

I'm gonna explain my question better using a couple of pics.

This is a batch that is still fermenting. It started 13 days ago and it's going to stop working.
You can see the lees on the bottom.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18wPgw6pUxndjulurB7CUjjvDCC696KF8


This is a second batch. It stopped fermenting after one week (I used a different yeast) and started to clarify then I filtered it and as you can see there are some lees inside but seem to be just residual dust not solid as while it was fermenting like the first batch above of course.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19-gKpL9MWgprv9MXtBwLoYpXGBDq8Onz


As I'm concerned about that bitter taste I got in the past, I'm wondering if I should wait the second batch to clarify completely before filtering it again to get off of that lees dust or if I should filter it now.
I will behave consequently for the first batch, of course!

Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

If you are going to filter it anyway, does it matter? Which type of filter do you got? A propper wine filter that removes all yeast and reliably stops fermentation completely? If so, ferment till desired sweetness, cold crash and then filter.

Otherwise, it depends on what you are after. I don't really understand what protocol you were following, but in general it is best practice to leave the mead on the yeast till it is finished fermenting and to shake/stir the yeast back into solution multiple times a day to enhance contact with the liquid, while still fermenting.

With prior racking you would remove active yeast, which you do not want to do until fg has been reached. You also lose a bit of mead each time you rack so you want to limit it to the smallest number possible.

When fg has been reached, best would be to cold crash, or if not possible, to let it clear and then get it off the lees as quickly as possible as some yeasts tend to create higher alcohols (fusels), when left too long on the lees after fermentation finished.

This process had been designed to make a drinkable mead as quickly as possible, without the need of aging, if combined with a proper nutrient protocol like tosna.

 

[resif]

Thank you Miraculix,
but as I mentioned before, the process I use is just letting the yeast to work until it has finished to work, then put the mead in another container getting the lees off and waiting for it to clarify then aging or bottling.
My real problem are those lees left in the second batch because I didn't use all the filters.

I use a filter machine for wine filtering: you can add multiple filters up to 16 in my case.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you Miraculix,
but as I mentioned before, the process I use is just letting the yeast to work until it has finished to work, then put the mead in another container getting the lees off and waiting for it to clarify then aging or bottling.
My real problem are those lees left in the second batch because I didn't use all the filters.

I use a filter machine for wine filtering: you can add multiple filters up to 16 in my case.

What was the purpose of filtering? Have you checked before if the mead was finished? Filtering usually is the very last step before packaging.

 

[resif]

What was the purpose of filtering? Have you checked before if the mead was finished? Filtering usually is the very last step before packaging.

The purpose is the topic title: "Bitter taste".
As the guys above said the bitter taste I got in the past could be produced by leaving the lees in the batch so I'm working on it and that why I asked this question.

As I said in my previous message and different times above, I filter or rack in another container just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work and that means when there are no bubbles, no activity, no more bubbles again and no more activity again, so just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work because I want the yeast to reach his limit.

 

[Miraculix]

The purpose is the topic title: "Bitter taste".
As the guys above said the bitter taste I got in the past could be produced by leaving the lees in the batch so I'm working on it and that why I asked this question.

As I said in my previous message and different times above, I filter or rack in another container just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work and that means when there are no bubbles, no activity, no more bubbles again and no more activity again, so just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work because I want the yeast to reach his limit.

You cannot see if the yeast has finished to work by watching bubbles or seeing it drop out or staring at the sky for a while.

The only reliable way is a gravity measurement a few days apart. If it stays the same, the yeast is done.

I think you have major flaws during your whole process. I would recommend to you to read the bomm thread in this forum and to follow precisely the instructions. After less than a month, you will have a nice mead and you will know why.

 

[resif]

I think you have major flaws during your whole process. I would recommend to you to read the bomm thread in this forum and to follow precisely the instructions. After less than a month, you will have a nice mead and you will know why.

Thank you for replies but I can't get the point of telling that I could have major flaws during my process.
If the yeast doesn't reach its tollerance, it means that it can eat more sugars and if I want to rack it on a different container at a spacific OG, I'll just have a mead with more sugar, not less for sure.
So that has to do with the sweetness of the mead not with the presence of the lees and the possibility that those can damage the taste.

Anyway I read the BOMM recipe and there's no mention about racking, filtering or anything so specific.
It's a good recipe with accuracy on the way to oxygenate and the use of the nutrients but it doesn't resolve my question so I try to put it in another way: do you have lees at the bottom when the mead start the clarification process? And what do you do with them in that moment of the mead making?

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you for replies but I can't get the point of telling that I could have major flaws during my process.
If the yeast doesn't reach its tollerance, it means that it can eat more sugars and if I want to rack it on a different container at a spacific OG, I'll just have a mead with more sugar, not less for sure.
So that has to do with the sweetness of the mead not with the presence of the lees and the possibility that those can damage the taste.

Anyway I read the BOMM recipe and there's no mention about racking, filtering or anything so specific.
It's a good recipe with accuracy on the way to oxygenate and the use of the nutrients but it doesn't resolve my question so I try to put it in another way: do you have lees at the bottom when the mead start the clarification process? And what do you do with them in that moment of the mead making?

The yeast eats sugar, with rising alcohol levels it eats those sugars slower and slower up to the point where alcohol levels are so high that the yeast stops eating more sugars.
Before this point is reached, the yeast gets slower and slower. The slower it gets, the less co2 per time is produced. The yeast produces so much co 2 at the beginning of fermentation that it agitates the whole solution, everything is swirling around, including the yeast.
With co2 production slowing down, the yeast does not get agitated that much any more and starts to settle down, even if there is still plenty of sugar left and the alcohol level is not high enough to stop the yeast from eating sugar.
That's why it is recommended to agitate the yeast, to keep it working.

If your gravity readings at one point confirm that final gravity has been reached, the mead is left alone or cold crashed till the yeast dropped out and then either bottled or racked into a second vessel for bulk aging.

Racking before final gravity has been reached does not determine the final sweetness of the mead, it just removes active yeast and puts the remaining yeast under higher pressure.

Under such a small timeframe, lees do not damage the taste. There are two ways lees can damage the taste, both involve leaving the mead too long on it AFTER FG HAS BEEN REACHED.
the lees can produce higher alcohols, which make the mead taste hot. Some yeasts tend to do this more than others.

If left way too long, yeast can autolyse, which would leave specific flavours, but I never heard that bitter would be one of them (but doesn't mean that it cannot be). Autolysis usually takes pressure and long time so I doubt that this is what's happening here.

I had some type of honey which got bitter when fermented dry, before the sugar was covering it up. Mainly varieties containing lots of clover honey gave me the bitter taste after being dried out. Backsweetening resolved this issue. Was your bitter mead dry or sweet?

 

[resif]

Thank you Miraculix for your explanation: I know about how the yeast works but anyway it helped me a lot.
I have different bottles: both dry and sweet meads have that taste.
Now I'm trying different yeasts because after your statement

Under such a small timeframe, lees do not damage the taste. There are two ways lees can damage the taste, both involve leaving the mead too long on it AFTER FG HAS BEEN REACHED.
the lees can produce higher alcohols, which make the mead taste hot. Some yeasts tend to do this more than others.

If left way too long, yeast can autolyse, which would leave specific flavours, but I never heard that bitter would be one of them (but doesn't mean that it cannot be). Autolysis usually takes pressure and long time so I doubt that this is what's happening here.

I'm starting to think that it could be the type of yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you Miraculix for your explanation: I know about how the yeast works but anyway it helped me a lot.
I have different bottles: both dry and sweet meads have that taste.
Now I'm trying different yeasts because after your statement



I'm starting to think that it could be the type of yeast.

I recently read about a specific yeast strain that caused bitterness, but it was a kveik, I'll doubt you got that one. Ql which one do you use? Have you reused the yeast? Try a new yeast with an improved protocol, like tosna or the bomm protocol.

Maybe your yaest is really the issue or maybe you got an ongoing infection that causes it, always hard to nail down exactly.