Bicarbonates and calcium levels

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dogslapbrewery

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I've always read that bicarbonates between 10-50 pale,
50-100 amber, 100-200 dark. Your calcium brings that down and whatever is left over is your RA and that's what we try to bring down with acid or salt additions to hit the proper ph. Does that also reflect the over all flavor? Say I brew a something with ale very low SRM around 2-3. Kne with water bicarbonates at 100ppm and another at 50ppm, same calcium, chloride, and sulfate. I add acid to the higher bicarbonate and get them at the same ph through out the whole process. Would the one with a lower bicarbonate let the malty flavors shine over the higher one?
 
I've always read that bicarbonates between 10-50 pale,
50-100 amber, 100-200 dark. Your calcium brings that down and whatever is left over is your RA and that's what we try to bring down with acid or salt additions to hit the proper ph. Does that also reflect the over all flavor? Say I brew a something with ale very low SRM around 2-3. Kne with water bicarbonates at 100ppm and another at 50ppm, same calcium, chloride, and sulfate. I add acid to the higher bicarbonate and get them at the same ph through out the whole process. Would the one with a lower bicarbonate let the malty flavors shine over the higher one?

Acid will bring your alkalinity down, but will not change the concentration of calcium, chloride and sulfate. If the levels of calcium, chloride and sulfate are the same in both batches, I think they'll taste pretty much the same.
 
I always add acid or minerals to my water to get ph at 5.2 but even when I make a very pale ale it just doesn't taste as good. I'm wondering if it's because the large amount of bicarbonates and calcium added to balance it out. If I was just use distilled water and build up to the style keeping my minerals very low would that give me that malty base that really shines through like a pilsner?
 
The proper level of bicarbonate in mashing water is that which produces an acceptable pH. Those ranges presented above appear to be too high and are likely to produce problems in the finished beer. In pale beers, there shouldn't be any bicarbonate at all and there is typically an excess of some form of acid to push the pH down. The other color beers also would have lower bicarbonate than indicated in the ranges above.

Very lightly mineralized water is beneficial to beers with delicate flavor, like light lagers. Other beers can benefit from more mineralization. It depends on the style.
 
So when they give you those figures of what brews work with what bicarbonate levels that's pretty much saying your ph will fall in the general range without doing much but if you want to brew something lighter or darker you need to add more calcium or alkalinity? Whenever I do a cream ale, trappist ale, pretty much anything around 3-5 SRM I get this not so crisp flavor. I always treat with sulfate or chloride depending on the style and lactic acid. I'm thinking of building up some low mineral water and see if they helps out. Here's my current water report
Calcium 36
Magnesium 9
Alkalinity 86
Sodium 14
Chloride 22
Sulfate 34
Ph 7.03
 
I've always read that bicarbonates between 10-50 pale,
50-100 amber, 100-200 dark.
The color of the beer has little (but not nothing) to do with it. Some rather dark beers (for example, Bock) come out very nicely when brewed with liquor of low alkalinity. The alkalinity required, if any, should be just enough to balance the acidity of the dark malts you use at the desired mash pH. The last Bock I did, for example, used 22.5% Pils, 28% Viennam 38.6% Munich I, 7% Munich II, and a fraction of a percent each Special B and Caravienne. It measured 25.8 SRM and required 1% Sauermalz equivalent in RO water (by which I mean the water was not RO and had appreciable alkalinity so that the grist actually contained 5% sauermalz) for mash pH of 5.4


Your calcium brings that down...
But not by much. The fairly appreciable calcium hardness in this example beer of about 130 ppm as CaCO3 only lowered pH by at most 0.02.


and whatever is left over is your RA and that's what we try to bring down with acid or salt additions to hit the proper ph.
RA is for comparing water. Beyond that you are not concerned with it. You are concerned with the proton deficits of each mash component including water. RA relates to that but worry about mash pH, not RA.
Does that also reflect the over all flavor? Say I brew a something with ale very low SRM around 2-3.
Mash is typically at pH 5.4 or so at which pH 90% of the bicarbonate has converted to CO2 gas and been driven off by the heat. Kettle pH should be at about 5.2 where 93% of the carbo is carbonic acid (which leaves solution). In the fermenter the yeast quickly drop the pH to under 5, say 4.6 where only 1.8% of the carbo is bicarbonate. Then the yeast saturate the beer with CO2. At atmospheric pressure (i.e. while still in the fermenter) the beer will have about 0.2% w/w CO2 dissolved in it which means at a litre will contain about 2000 grams of which 1.7% equal to 34 mg will convert to bicarbonate. Carbonated to a couple of volumes that level will double to 68 mg/L bicarbonate. In summary, the bicarbonate in fermenting or finished beer attributable to CO2 is much greater than the bicarbonate which has survived mashing and boiling.


Kne with water bicarbonates at 100ppm and another at 50ppm, same calcium, chloride, and sulfate.
???

I add acid to the higher bicarbonate and get them at the same ph through out the whole process. Would the one with a lower bicarbonate let the malty flavors shine over the higher one?

Bicarbonate in mash or mashing liquor is responsible for most of the proton deficit of mash water and therefore water of low alkalinity is generally to be preferred in brewing. If the water has a large proton deficit it must be balanced by things which have proton surfeits such as dark malts and acids. There are consequences in the use of either. If acids are used 1 mEq of the anion of the acid remains behind for each mEq of deficit neutralized. For example, water of alkalinity 100 ppm as CaCO3 (2mEq/L) to be used in a beer to be mashed at pH 5.4 will require about 1.8 mEq/L of acid and will leave behind 1.8 mEq/L sulfate or chloride of lactate or biphosphate ion depending on the acid used. If dark malts are used then the more alkalinty that needs to be neutralized the more dark malt needs to be used and the more dark malt flavors will remain in the beer. Now, of course, that may be desirable and it may be desirable to have chloride and/or sulfate in the beer. Where this is the case it is easier to use RO water and add the chloride or sulfate salt rather than to add bicarbonate and then neutralize it with the acid. At least you don't have to handle strong acids.

You should seldom have to add bicarbonate to brewing water and when you do you should do it judiciously.
 
So pretty much bicarbonates wouldn't be a source of off flavors but all the salts added might contribute to non desirable flavors? I want to brew a cream ale tomorrow, figured ill try and build up water instead see how it turns out. This is what I'm thinking for the water profile Calcium 30-50ppm, sulfate 30-50ppm, chloride 75-100ppm, magnesium 5-10ppm, sodium 50-75ppm, and yeaSt nutrients
 
So pretty much bicarbonates wouldn't be a source of off flavors but all the salts added might contribute to non desirable flavors? I want to brew a cream ale tomorrow, figured ill try and build up water instead see how it turns out. This is what I'm thinking for the water profile Calcium 30-50ppm, sulfate 30-50ppm, chloride 75-100ppm, magnesium 5-10ppm, sodium 50-75ppm, and yeaSt nutrients


"Less is more" is my advice.

Add enough calcium chloride to get your calcium to 50 ppm or more, and target a mash pH of 5.3-5.4. You don't need anything else.

I question the "yeast nutrients"- what are you using, what is in it, and why are you using it?

A guy from this forum went nuts trying to nail his off flavors, even sending me beer to taste to find out what was wrong, and after going with distilled water he still had that flavor. Finally, we found that it was those "yeast nutrients" (DAP) causing the flavor issue.
 
I'm using wyeast nutrients but I normally don't ever. I've read that if your building up your water from distilled it's a good idea to add because it's missing all those natural metals and such that yeast likes. So you think just getting my calcium at 50ppm is good and not to add anyour sulfate, chloride, or sodium? If that's the case what's so alternative to adding calcium without other additions?
 
I'm using wyeast nutrients but I normally don't ever. I've read that if your building up your water from distilled it's a good idea to add because it's missing all those natural metals and such that yeast likes. So you think just getting my calcium at 50ppm is good and not to add anyour sulfate, chloride, or sodium? If that's the case what's so alternative to adding calcium without other additions?

Well, malt has plenty of magnesium so adding more isn't necessary. I'm not sure what you're asking here, though.
 
You get those from gypsum and calcium chloride. Calcium is pretty flavor neutral so most people use as much of these salts as are necessary to get the amounts of the anions they want. Sodium chloride is, of course, another source of chloride and the magnesium salts can be too but most of us are a little wary of them because of the bitterness of magnesium.

The grains provide plenty of trace elements for yeast health with the possible exception of zinc. Very interesting on the DAP!
 
Yeah so I brewed Wednesday using distilled water at ca 50ppm, sulfate 30ppm, chloride 100ppm, sodium 23ppm, Ph landed between 5.4-5.5 at room temp. Not sure what I did wrong but my efficency dropped a lot missing OG by 7 points and fermentation took off very slow and not very vigorous. Is the whole point of building up water for the scenario where your tap is so hard you'd have to add such a ridiculous amount of salts/minerals that it's just easier to build up a lower profile water easier to hit proper ph?
 
The easiest thing to do is add as much CaCl2 and CaSO4 as you like to get the chloride and sulfate levels you want to DI water and control mash pH with sauermalz or acid.
 
Yeah I dialed in my minerals where I wanted for the style then just adjusted with lactic acid being about 2ml total. Not sure why my efficency suffered so much.
 
No. RA is for comparing water supplies. Once you get to the mash it really isn't that useful any more. I've said that so many times I may have already said it in this thread. Monitor mash pH. on't worry about RA. It is going to go where it needs to go to get proper mash pH.
 

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