Bicarbonate vs calcium.

[Moezart]

Hello everyone.
I have been brewing for about 4 years now. Lots of highs, some lows... And still learning for sure!!!
One of my most annoying lows is I sometimes, randomly get a harsh, almost astringent flavors from some of my homebrews, and it is very annoying...
I have been using the same equipment and practically the same method (all grain homemade malt) the whole time. I read a lot about the possible culprit, and I think it is down to the high level of Bicarbonate and chloride in the (bottled) water I have been using. I do not have access to any type of chemicals to modify the chemistry of the water, so I have to do improvise, unless there is something readily accessible in a regular pharmacy (I live in Tunisia).
I read that boiling water would eliminate chlorine and bicarbonate. But I am confused about something:
If Calcium is considered permanent hardness how come it is eliminated via the bond with Bicarbonate when water is boiled. Wouldn't that make it not permanent hardness?
Also, if Calcium is eliminated, wouldn't I loose a necessary element for the acidification of the wort? I basically need to get rid of chlorine and Bicarbonate but keep my calcium...
How can I sucumvent this issue?
Thank you.

 

[VikeMan]

I read that boiling water would eliminate chlorine and bicarbonate.

It can precipitate bicarbonate (in the form of carbonate bound with calcium).

If Calcium is considered permanent hardness how come it is eliminated via the bond with Bicarbonate when water is boiled. Wouldn't that make it not permanent hardness?

Calcium is permanent to the extent it exceeds the bicarbonate available. The portion that binds and precipitates is temporary.

Also, if Calcium is eliminated, wouldn't I loose a necessary element for the acidification of the wort? I basically need to get rid of chlorine and Bicarbonate but keep my calcium...

You can add calcium back in the form of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate. But this is a complex relationship, because when you precipitate the calcium carbonate, you also reduce alkalinity.

 

[Moezart]

It can precipitate bicarbonate (in the form of carbonate bound with calcium).



Calcium is permanent to the extent it exceeds to bicarbonate available. The portion that binds and precipitates is temporary.



You can add calcium back in the form of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate. But this is a complex relationship, because when you precipitate the calcium carbonate, you also reduce alkalinity.

It can precipitate bicarbonate (in the form of carbonate bound with calcium).



Calcium is permanent to the extent it exceeds to bicarbonate available. The portion that binds and precipitates is temporary.



You can add calcium back in the form of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate. But this is a complex relationship, because when you precipitate the calcium carbonate, you also reduce alkalinity.

So if you had a water profile like mine how would you proceed? It seems to me that most of the calcium will disappear before I get rid of the bicarbonate?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Neither gypsum nor calcium chloride should be too difficult to find as they have myriads of uses (ex: gypsum often used in gardening and calcium chloride as an ice melt). Finding something pure enough to be food safe could be more challeng.

If procuring salts or acid isn't feasible, what about either a different water source, or a home RO filtration unit?

 

[VikeMan]

So if you had a water profile like mine how would you proceed? It seems to me that most of the calcium will disappear before I get rid of the bicarbonate?

I'm not sure I understand you goal of getting rid of all the bicarbonate. Can you get Lactic Acid or Phosphoric Acid to neutralize alkalinity where necessary?

 

[Moezart]

Neither gypsum nor calcium chloride should be too difficult to find as they have myriads of uses (ex: gypsum often used in gardening and calcium chloride as an ice melt). Finding something pure enough to be food safe could be more challeng.

If procuring salts or acid isn't feasible, what about either a different water source, or a home RO filtration unit?

What salts or acids do I need in this case? I am going to visit my local pharmacies to see what I get my hands on! I am just tired of such hard work to get hard tasting beer!

 

[Moezart]

As

I'm not sure I understand you goal of getting rid of all the bicarbonate. Can you get Lactic Acid or Phosphoric Acid to neutralize alkalinity where necessary?

Per "the Complete Joy of Homebrewing" levels of Bicarbonate higher than 100 ppm imparts harshness and bitterness to beer.
I will look for those acids tomorrow, hopefully they are available in the local pharmacies

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You can only boil out bicarbonate if sufficient calcium is present, and even if calcium is present in abundance you will not boil alkalinity (as CaCO3) down to below about 65 ppm (wherein 65 ppm alkalinity = ~79 ppm bicarbonate). The reaction to rempve alkalinity via boiling stops whenever calcium hits ~12 ppm. And it stops regardless of calcium level present when alkalinity hits ~65 ppm.

Almost all of the old timers peer reviewed literature I've come across states that once alkalinity is at or below 50 ppm you can sparge with it and not have a concern for astringency (unless you over-sparge). I'm certain that this flies in the face of much to perhaps all of the "not peer reviewed" literature that is out there in abundance.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As to acids, your LHBS (local home brew supply/shop) should offer 88% lactic acid, and 10% Phosphoric Acid. You will burn through 10% phosphoric in a hurry. It is needed at 'generally' somewhere around 10.5 to 11 times the mL volume of 88% Lactic Acid.

 

[Qhrumphf]

OP is in Tunisia so the "your LHBS" advice probably isn't helpful.

As said above, you're looking for lactic or phosphoric acid, and/or calcium chloride or calcium sulfate (gypsum). The latter two you could check home/garden stores if you have them.

Your last ditch alternative would be using grains to create a lactic culture (basically make an unhopped wort at around 100F and adding whole or crushed grain to it to innoculate with wild organisms present on the grain, then using that sour wort to acidify your mash). But with some supplemental acid to drop the pH initially, and some know-how, that can very easily go very wrong on you.

The level of bicarbonate doesn't intrinsically matter (unless it's so high its impossible to neutralize without flavor impact, which I don't think yours is), but the pH buffering that it imparts.

 

[Moezart]

OP is in Tunisia so the "your LHBS" advice probably isn't helpful.

As said above, you're looking for lactic or phosphoric acid, and/or calcium chloride or calcium sulfate (gypsum). The latter two you could check home/garden stores if you have them.

Your last ditch alternative would be using grains to create a lactic culture (basically make an unhopped wort at around 100F and adding whole or crushed grain to it to innoculate with wild organisms present on the grain, then using that sour wort to acidify your mash). But with some supplemental acid to drop the pH initially, and some know-how, that can very easily go very wrong on you.

The level of bicarbonate doesn't intrinsically matter (unless it's so high its impossible to neutralize without flavor impact, which I don't think yours is), but the pH buffering that it imparts.

Thank you buddy!

 

[Moezart]

You can only boil out bicarbonate if sufficient calcium is present, and even if calcium is present in abundance you will not boil alkalinity (as CaCO3) down to below about 65 ppm (wherein 65 ppm alkalinity = ~79 ppm bicarbonate). The reaction to rempve alkalinity via boiling stops whenever calcium hits ~12 ppm. And it stops regardless of calcium level present when alkalinity hits ~65 ppm.

Almost all of the old timers peer reviewed literature I've come across states that once alkalinity is at or below 50 ppm you can sparge with it and not have a concern for astringency (unless you over-sparge). I'm certain that this flies in the face of much to perhaps all of the "not peer reviewed" literature that is out there in abundance.

Thank you!

 

[Moezart]

What do you guys think of these two different bottled water sources? I am leaning more towards the blue-labeled one because of the higher calcium content (assuming I am going to boil it before mashing). Am I on the right track? Or am I over thinking it!.. I am just sick of investing so much time, effort and expense just to end up with a good-looking HARSH beer.
Should I use any of these as is or should I use some acids or salts( which I am close to acquiring) to adjust them?
Thank you.

 

[VikeMan]

What do you guys think of these two different bottle water sources? I am leaning more towards the blue-labeled one because of the higher calcium content (assuming I am going to boil it before mashing).

Yes, if you plan to boil and decant to get rid of some bicarbonate, then the one with more calcium would be more effective for that.

 

[Moezart]

Yes, if you plan to boil and decant to get rid of some bicarbonate, then the one with more calcium would be more effective for that.

Awesome! Thank you.