BIAB - Particulate

[CidahMastah]

I did my first BIAB yesterday and it went really well, aside from the anticipated learning a new method stuff. I did my mash on the stove top in 4 gallons then dumped the grain sack in 2 gallons of 168F for 10 minutes, as per another BIAB's suggestion. Then I drained the back and added my volume up to 7 gallons for my boil. Was about 72-75% efficient!

There was quite a bit of particulate in my wort - as I expected it settled out over 8-10 hours, but I was surprised to see so much. I think this is due to the fine grind I used on my corona mill. Will that much particulate cause any flavor issues? I am guessing not, but I assume this is why people batch sparge, to filter out that stuff for clearer wort.

Thanks!

 

[Rivenin]

i'm going to go it will turn into the trub crap at the bottom, you just might have more then normal due to the BIAB method and no real filtering from the grain bed

 

[Nateo]

The main risk you run is tannin extraction. Tannin extraction is affected by wort pH and temperature, so sparging at or below 168*, and making sure your pH in the mash and sparge are below 5.8 will help.

I'm actually trying to trouble-shoot and off flavor that's developed recently. I've done 20+ brews with the BIAB method, with no issues before now. BIAB does get a bit of grain bits, like flour, into the wort. I recently got some "professionally" milled grain that has a lot more flour than I usually use. This has coincided with an astringent off-flavor that tastes like husks and raw grain. I only notice it when I use a lot of grain, in low/medium gravity beers I haven't been getting it.

Talking to some people on the Homebrewers Association forum, they suggested my issue was from too much particulate getting into the boil kettle. They also said I should put the grain bag in a colander, and run the wort through the grain to act as a filter bed.

They also said I should use super fine mesh in the grain bag. I've recently been using a paint strainer instead of cheesecloth, which I think is part of my problem.

 

[CidahMastah]

That for the PH and sparge tip (my sparge water was 168).

Fortunatley, a buddy of mine wants to join forces and he is going to buy a mash tun. I am sure this will help out, but I still have two batches planned before we get the new toy.

I will taste for the astringency thing. That concerns me. I haven't made this particular batch as extract, so I don't have a bench mark.


Thanks!

 

[gunner65]

It will compact into trub over the course of the fermentation. My first BIAB had about 9 inches of that stuff in the bottom about 48 hours into ferm it had compacted to the normal 2 inches of trub. I did not get any off flavor from it. I also double mill my grain through my new BC and it was almost flour.

Nyon Voile is the material most recommended can be had at any fabric shop. I just did another BIAB yesterday and hit 77.8 percent woo hoo!

 

[techrunner]

yeah, like was said above, my first biab was my last batch. it was extremely cloudy out of the boil kettle, after sitting and cooling overnight. i left it in the primary for my usual 4 weeks though, and it was nice and clear going into the keg. so i think you're all good.

 

[CidahMastah]

Your scenario sounds like mine gunner. Looked like little chunks all throughout, then over the next say 8 hours settled to the bottom as trub, about 1.5-2 inches.

Hoping it turns out great, if not I will keep trying!

 

[Nateo]

It's commonly thought that tannin extraction is not an issue with the BIAB method, and I agree that it's mostly not. I really only get the astringency on large grists, like 1.100+ beers, and that's only been recently. I've brewed big beers with the BIAB method and not had any astringency.

I do think that fewer particles in the boil will result in better beer. Some particles aren't a big deal, but anything you can do, within reason, to limit them is good.

 

[gunner65]

It's commonly thought that tannin extraction is not an issue with the BIAB method, and I agree that it's mostly not. I really only get the astringency on large grists, like 1.100+ beers, and that's only been recently. I've brewed big beers with the BIAB method and not had any astringency.

I do think that fewer particles in the boil will result in better beer. Some particles aren't a big deal, but anything you can do, within reason, to limit them is good.

It is good to know as I am wanting to do a barley wine soon in BIAB.

 

[jschweiss]

After I got my corona mill I noticed that was getting a lot of husk in my wort and fermenter and that hadn't been a problem with grain milled at my LHBS. It didn't seem to matter if I used a paint strainer or a nylon grain bag. I doubled bagged my last batch (14 lbs of grain) using one of each (paint strainer inside of grain bag) and had next to nothing floating in my wort.

I thought I was a bit of a genius until I searched the forums and found a lot of other people mentioning it, and even though it wasn't my unique idea I still highly recommend trying it. My efficiency was 77%, the wort was clearer, and this batch actually started fermenting faster than my "husky" batches.

 

[the_bird]

Are you sure that it wasn't cold break material?

 

[Nateo]

Can anyone tell me the difference in mesh coarseness between cheesecloth and voile?

 

[Buna_Bere]

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/670 If you listen to this episode of Brew Strong on the Brewing Network, at 45:30 in, there's a part where John Palmer talks about a study he read about cloudy wort being good. I think he was saying the protiens were good for yeast health. I use a 2'x3' coarse nylon bag from midwest supplies in my 10 gallon pot, worked great for my first 2 batches.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/nylon-extra-large-straining-bag-2-x-3-coarse-mesh.html


Bob

 

[samc]

Can anyone tell me the difference in mesh coarseness between cheesecloth and voile?

Their are many grades of cheese-cloth so it would be hard to answer that question. Voile thread counts are all over the place, but in general I'd bet that it is a finer woven fabric then cheese-cloth.

 

[CidahMastah]

It may have been cold break material, it wasn't like there were a bunch of husks. They looked like soft matter, since this was my first batch, perhaps I mistook cold break for particulate. I had maybe 10 husks at the bottom of the wort - that never made it into my fermenter, but that is because I spilled a little bit out when stirring.

 

[the_bird]

Cold break material looks really weird if you get a decent chill on - egg-drop soup is probably the best descriptor. Depending on how fast you're chilling and if you're stirring, it can just look kind of cloudy. It's nothing to worry about, it settles out and as I think someone noted the proteins are good for the yeast.

 

[CidahMastah]

I chiiled my boil external environment chiller - a la snow bank style (had it chilled in less than 15 to 65) - Actually went a little too low almost!

Egg drop was what I got. I think I am just not used to seeing that much, coming from extract.

 

[the_bird]

Well, if you were chilling faster than usual, you probably got a better cold break than you're used to. The first time I used an immersion chiller, it was like "Whoa! So THAT'S what cold break looks like!"

I don't think extract/AG has much to do with cold break formation. Extract will often have less *hot* break material, as a lot of those proteins are removed in the extract manufacturing process, but I've never heard the same regarding cold break.

In any case, all is good, a strong cold break is a good thing, it helps clarify the beer.

 

[gunner65]

Funny I had just started using my new CFC on my first BIAB with recirculation. Chilled to 68 in less than 15 minutes. I believe now that mine was also cold break.

 

[CidahMastah]

Awesome - looks like I am off to a good start on the first run. However, looks like I will need to buy make a chiller when the snow disapears. It works really well. However I will be happy to see the snow go! ha

 

[gunner65]

Awesome - looks like I am off to a good start on the first run. However, looks like I will need to buy make a chiller when the snow disapears. It works really well. However I will be happy to see the snow go! ha

The Bobbym CFC is easy and it works real well. Buy the copper tubing off ebay and save a ton over HD and Lowes buy the hose and copper in 50' and make two for not much more than the cost of one. I made two 25' CFCs and sold the second one to a friend for the cost of materials ($65) so mine was free + labor.

 

[CidahMastah]

The Bobbym CFC is easy and it works real well. Buy the copper tubing off ebay and save a ton over HD and Lowes buy the hose and copper in 50' and make two for not much more than the cost of one. I made two 25' CFCs and sold the second one to a friend for the cost of materials ($65) so mine was free + labor.

Awesome. This is a bit ; but I was thinking about making 1/2'' chiller. Was yours 3/8 or 1/2?

 

[gunner65]

Awesome. This is a bit ; but I was thinking about making 1/2'' chiller. Was yours 3/8 or 1/2?

I think the hard part is sourcing the outer hose for 1/2" inner copper. I think it would have to be about 1" and handle higher temperature. That is the reason everyone goes with 3/8" is because it fits into a standard 5/8" garden hose. If you build it show it off I am sure others would like to see it done

 

[CidahMastah]

I was thinking that after I posted (showing off), er no! I mean was thinking the hose might be the issue. I guess for my (max) 10 gallon batches right now, 1/2 inch may be overkill.

 

[HossTheGreat]

The main risk you run is tannin extraction. Tannin extraction is affected by wort pH and temperature, so sparging at or below 168*, and making sure your pH in the mash and sparge are below 5.8 will help.

I'm actually trying to trouble-shoot and off flavor that's developed recently. I've done 20+ brews with the BIAB method, with no issues before now. BIAB does get a bit of grain bits, like flour, into the wort. I recently got some "professionally" milled grain that has a lot more flour than I usually use. This has coincided with an astringent off-flavor that tastes like husks and raw grain. I only notice it when I use a lot of grain, in low/medium gravity beers I haven't been getting it.

Talking to some people on the Homebrewers Association forum, they suggested my issue was from too much particulate getting into the boil kettle. They also said I should put the grain bag in a colander, and run the wort through the grain to act as a filter bed.

They also said I should use super fine mesh in the grain bag. I've recently been using a paint strainer instead of cheesecloth, which I think is part of my problem.

I know this thread is a couple of months old, but I am having a very similar problem. I actually use the 2'x3' coarse mesh bag that midwest sells. It has worked nicely, but I think it may be too coarse. I too have been fighting a grainy taste in my beers. It primarily shows through on my lighter beers, such as my pale ales. It pretty much dominates the taste and aroma of the beer. I'm going to see if I can pick up some voile, as I understand it's much finer and try that next. I just need to find someone who can sew it up into a bag for me. I hope this is, in fact, the issue as I'm quickly growing frustrated over this problem.

 

[dantheman13]

Just throwing this bit of information I received from the BIAB forum in Australia; the idea that a finer grind is good for BIAB isn't always true. They suggest going with the standard coarse grind unless you want to try experimenting with different grind levels.

 

[ayoungrad]

It could be your bag but I use a 2 x 3 foot bag as well. Probably the same degree of coarseness but you never know - I got mine at my LHBS. I have not had your issue yet.

Could it be something else? Do you squeeze the bag? This can theoretically cause the issue as well.

 

[HossTheGreat]

It could be your bag but I use a 2 x 3 foot bag as well. Probably the same degree of coarseness but you never know - I got mine at my LHBS. I have not had your issue yet.

Could it be something else? Do you squeeze the bag? This can theoretically cause the issue as well.

Nope, I don't squeeze it at all. I just pull it out and let it sit in a colander on top of my kettle to drain while I'm bringing to a boil. The reason I think it's my bag is because, I was using a corona mill and doing way too fine of a crush. I have since changed to a crankandstein, at the factory setting, using a very low RPM drill. The grainy flavor has reduced quite a bit, but it's still there. I am hoping that changing to a finer mesh bag will fix the problem.

 

[Nateo]

I recently switched to lauter-in-bag method, which has eliminated my problem. I put the bag in my bottling bucket, and run the wort through the grain bed a few times to filter it. This has greatly reduced the amount of grain getting into my kettle, and the flavor, body, and head retention on my brews have improved.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I recently switched to lauter-in-bag method, which has eliminated my problem. I put the bag in my bottling bucket, and run the wort through the grain bed a few times to filter it. This has greatly reduced the amount of grain getting into my kettle, and the flavor, body, and head retention on my brews have improved.

What type of bag are you using now?

 

[dan6310]

I use voile fabric. It is about 10% finer than my LHB 6"x9" hop bag. I had only had about 3/4" of trub in the bottom of the kettle with a 9 lb grain bill. It settled out very fast with a good cold break. When I poured the wort into the fermenter, I left as much of the trub in the kettle as I could. beer came out great.

 

[HossTheGreat]

Well, I'm going to try the voile. I really hope this solves the problem.