better to add minerals to boil?

[mwill07]

I have relatively soft water (values in bottom of post). I will be brewing an ESB today, and want to mimic the hard Burton profile.

I am using Bru'n Water spreadsheet, v1_16, by the way.

I find if I add about 3.5 g/gal of gypsum, 1 g/gal of Epsom Salt and 0.25 g/gal of CaCl2, my mineral profile closely matches Burton except for bicarbonate. And, RA is -169. When I look at the mash acidification sheet, I see the predicted mash pH drops to 4.7, and alkalinity is needed.

However, if I just use unadjusted water from the tap, the mash pH is 5.3, and
RA is 13, which all seems great.

So - would it make sense to hold all mineral adjustments for the boil rather than mash/sparge? It seems that all mineral additions are more for flavor balance as well as yeast health, and my existing water is nearly perfect for the mash.

Thanks!
==================
Ca: 9.3
Mg: 2.3
Na: 9.5
K: 2.5
Fe: 0
HCO3: 21.3
CO3: 2.3
SO4: 15.8
Cl: 9.3
NO3: 2.4
PH: 7.9
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3): 21.5

 

[ajdelange]

I find if I add about 3.5 g/gal of gypsum, 1 g/gal of Epsom Salt and 0.25 g/gal of CaCl2, my mineral profile closely matches Burton except for bicarbonate. And, RA is -169. When I look at the mash acidification sheet, I see the predicted mash pH drops to 4.7, and alkalinity is needed.

That's not right. It would take a lot of acid to pull the pH of the mash that low. Even the absurdly high level of calcium you are contemplating can only pull the pH down by, at most, 0.1 pH to about 5.5.

However, if I just use unadjusted water from the tap, the mash pH is 5.3, and RA is 13, which all seems great.

That's not reasonable either unless you have sauermalz in the grain bill or are adding acid from another source.

So - would it make sense to hold all mineral adjustments for the boil rather than mash/sparge? It seems that all mineral additions are more for flavor balance as well as yeast health, and my existing water is nearly perfect for the mash.

You need to figure out why you are getting such low pH estimates. A typical mash with 85% typical base malts and the rest relatively lightly kilned but enough to get some color you could expect a mash pH pretty close to that of the base malt (5.6-5.7).

 

[mwill07]

That's not right. It would take a lot of acid to pull the pH of the mash that low. Even the absurdly high level of calcium you are contemplating can only pull the pH down by, at most, 0.1 pH to about 5.5.

That's not reasonable either unless you have sauermalz in the grain bill or are adding acid from another source.

You need to figure out why you are getting such low pH estimates. A typical mash with 85% typical base malts and the rest relatively lightly kilned but enough to get some color you could expect a mash pH pretty close to that of the base malt (5.6-5.7).

thanks for the response. I just re-downloaded a fresh copy bru'n water, plugged in my numbers, and get the same results.

Here is my grain bill:
Marris Otter: 8.5 lb (3 L)
crystal 40: 1 lb (40 L)
carapils: 0.25 lb (2 L)
special b: 0.25 lb (180 L)

mashing with 2.5 gal of water.

 

[mwill07]

also - it is a lot of calcium. 3.5 g/gal of gypsum is 17.5 grams in 5 gallons, which is just over 4 teaspoons.

per "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels, "if you are starting with 5 gallons of very soft water that contains little or no mineral ions, you could add 5 teaspoons of gypsum to achieve mineral concentrations that are near Burton levels."

no that this is definitive or that I need to follow this to the letter, it's just a right-angle check that the above gypsum isn't too much.

 

[ajdelange]

That grain bill is not much different from what I assumed for you and so the mash prediction without the massive calcium bolus is still 5.6 (Crisp Maris Otter) at room temperature. The calcium addition will only lower that by at most 0.1 pH so something is funny. Most probably you are not specifying the malt parameters to the program correctly. To get this mash to pH 5.3 is going to take something like 68 mEq of protons. That's about 6 mL 88% lactic acid. To get it to 4.7 would take about 220 mEq (19 mL of the acid). You have somehow told the program that one of the grains has 68 mEq proton surfeit relative to pH 5.3 and that adding some calcium supplies another 150. Something is way wrong here.

 

[ajdelange]

As to the calcium level: if you can tolerate that much have at it. I would recommend taste testing by adding that much (scaled) to a glass of finished beer to see.

 

[mwill07]

That grain bill is not much different from what I assumed for you and so the mash prediction without the massive calcium bolus is still 5.6 (Crisp Maris Otter) at room temperature. The calcium addition will only lower that by at most 0.1 pH so something is funny. Most probably you are not specifying the malt parameters to the program correctly. To get this mash to pH 5.3 is going to take something like 68 mEq of protons. That's about 6 mL 88% lactic acid. To get it to 4.7 would take about 220 mEq (19 mL of the acid). You have somehow told the program that one of the grains has 68 mEq proton surfeit relative to pH 5.3 and that adding some calcium supplies another 150. Something is way wrong here.

weird. when I put everything into the brewersfriend calculator, everything comes up as you say above. I'm sure I'm entering something in funny in Bru'n water. Thanks for the sanity check.