Best way to work with co2 extract (hopshot)

[beervoid]

I have been experimenting with co2 extract for bittering purposes and noticed at the end of the brew there are many dark specks on the side of the kettle.

I tried dissolving the oil in strong alcohol and warming it up and introducing it slowly.
Non of these techniques seemed to work.

Any people here that have experience with these co2 extracts and can offer any insights how to minimize the mess?

Cheers

 

[bucketnative]

It's really going to depend on the solubility of the extracts themselves. Not everything will be water miscible. If they're not miscible, then they are going to float on the surface and get left behind, kind of like the layer of fat in chicken stock. You're fighting physics, or at least chemistry. You might need to try a surfactant to solubilize the extract, like Tween 20 (polysorbate 20). But, those will most likely kill your head retention.

You might have better luck on the cold side of things.

 

[Vale71]

I assume this is alpha-acid extract and not aroma extract?

I'll never tire of pointing this out (or mabe someday I will, who knows) but alpha-acids are resins and not oils. As such, they're not readily soluble in water as they have to isomerize first. The part that does not isomerize might end up as burnt-up residue if it touches hot parts of the kettle, just like any other insoluble component such as hot break material. I'm afraid this will always be unavoidable as even with CO2 extract you will still not get anywhere close to 100% utilization.

Alpha-acids readily dissolve in iso-octane but as it's toxic and carcinogenic I would not really consider that as an option. I'm afraid warming the extract up as much as you can and adding it as slowly as possible is all that you can do to minimize the issue.

 

[beervoid]

I assume this is alpha-acid extract and not aroma extract?

I'll never tire of pointing this out (or mabe someday I will, who knows) but alpha-acids are resins and not oils. As such, they're not readily soluble in water as they have to isomerize first. The part that does not isomerize might end up as burnt-up residue if it touches hot parts of the kettle, just like any other insoluble component such as hot break material. I'm afraid this will always be unavoidable as even with CO2 extract you will still not get anywhere close to 100% utilization.

Alpha-acids readily dissolve in iso-octane but as it's toxic and carcinogenic I would not really consider that as an option. I'm afraid warming the extract up as much as you can and adding it as slowly as possible is all that you can do to minimize the issue.

Its the CTZ blend from yakima that comes in tins and also makes it as hopshots in syringes.
Thanks for the info ill try to go as slow as possible.

Cleanup is also a nightmare...

 

[Vale71]

Yes it's definitely alpha-acid extract. Extract will give you a higher yield but it's still not a fire-and-forget solution unfortunately. For that you'd need pre-isomerized extract that you can add to the beer without boiling.

 

[hottpeper13]

Had to go upstairs and get the Dawn dish soap(worked best,PBW wouldn't touch it) and vowed never again!

 

[mongoose33]

What I do is simply squirt the hop shot into the boiling wort. I've gotten to where that's all I use for bittering. I don't get any weird stuff like black specs.

I haven't had any issues with cleanup at all--though how one does it is likely the difference. HOT PBW solution works far better than lukewarm. I do electric brewing and when I clean up I first rinse the kettle as much as possible. I then add enough water to cover the ports, then turn on the power to heat the water up to 160 degrees or a bit more. Add PBW, and then I recirculate that hot solution through the CF chiller and pump to clean everything up followed by rinsing.

I use a scotch-brite scrubber or long handled brush to draw the hot PBW solution up on the sides, a little swishing and rubbing while it recirculates and it's clean.

Hot PBW--it's the ticket for me.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

How do you guys enter this in beersmith?

 

[beervoid]

How do you guys enter this in beersmith?

Thats also a mystery to me.
I had to put the AA% to 100 to get the ibu's near what yakima says it should give. 10ibu at 1ml per 5 gallons.

 

[Vale71]

It should have the AA percentage on the label. The value given is always for the product as delivered even for downstream products.

 

[beervoid]

It should have the AA percentage on the label. The value given is always for the product as delivered even for downstream products.

If you put that the IBU's dont add up.

 

[Vale71]

Add up with what? Short of having your beer analyzed there's no telling what yield you'll actually have on your system. All you can do is proceed with trial-and-error and reduce the amount in small increments compared to what the software gives you for pellets and see how the beer tastes.

 

[mongoose33]

How do you guys enter this in beersmith?

Even though I have a subscription to Beersmith, I don't use it much if at all.

If you look at the Yakima Valley hopshot page, they show the following:

https://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/Hop_Extract_10mL_Hop_Shot_p/extracthopshot10ml.htm


-->One-milliliter yields around 10 IBUs in 5 gallons of 1.050 wort when boiled for 60 minutes.


Perhaps you could work back, adding a "fictitious" hop that produces the same thing when boiled 60 minutes, but don't actually add it.

 

[beervoid]

Add up with what? Short of having your beer analyzed there's no telling what yield you'll actually have on your system. All you can do is proceed with trial-and-error and reduce the amount in small increments compared to what the software gives you for pellets and see how the beer tastes.

Yakima states 10ibu per 1 ml of hop extract. The beauty of hop extracts is you can control your IBU more precise.
If you add the AA nrs that are written on the can of the extract in the Beersmith ingredients you dont get the same IBU. At least I dont.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Yakima states 10ibu per 1 ml of hop extract. The beauty of hop extracts is you can control your IBU more precise.
If you add the AA nrs that are written on the can of the extract in the Beersmith ingredients you dont get the same IBU. At least I dont.

Beersmith calculates half the ibu for 60 min addition with published AA. I will just adjust to double the published AA so it calculates 10 IBU per 1ml @1.050 og

 

[Vale71]

Yakima states 10ibu per 1 ml of hop extract. The beauty of hop extracts is you can control your IBU more precise.

No you can't, unless we're talking isomerized extract which this product is not. With isomerized extract you know exactly how much is ending up in the beer and can dose accordingly. With CO2 non-isomerized extract you still have to know the yield of your process which commercial breweries actually measure and as a homebrewer you can only take a guess at. Yakima's statement of 10IBUs per ml is meaningless and only misleading for the homebrewer.

 

[couchsending]

I used extract for a while and eventually gave up. Wasn’t seeing the bitterness even with what seemed like gigantic additions. Our kettles are so small at a Homebrew level that I think the utilization goes way down as so much of it seems to get stuck to the sides of the kettle. Could be way off but that’s my theory.

 

[beervoid]

No you can't, unless we're talking isomerized extract which this product is not. With isomerized extract you know exactly how much is ending up in the beer and can dose accordingly. With CO2 non-isomerized extract you still have to know the yield of your process which commercial breweries actually measure and as a homebrewer you can only take a guess at. Yakima's statement of 10IBUs per ml is meaningless and only misleading for the homebrewer.

I get your point but shouldnt it be more precise as the product is more stable then pellets which degrade faster.
I would imagine yakima would have run some test to give you a pretty good idea of the contributed IBU's.
IBU's seem to be a very loose term anyway nowadays.

 

[beervoid]

I used extract for a while and eventually gave up. Wasn’t seeing the bitterness even with what seemed like gigantic additions. Our kettles are so small at a Homebrew level that I think the utilization goes way down as so much of it seems to get stuck to the sides of the kettle. Could be way off but that’s my theory.

Atm im putting 10ml in 10 gallon batch. Definately getting a bitterness from it, but I have to say for the calculated 50ibu it tastes barely more bitter then a pellet addition calculated at 10-20 ibu.
Did you experience a cleaner less lingering bitterness from your experiments with it?

 

[beervoid]

Double post by accident.

 

[Vale71]

I get your point but shouldnt it be more precise as the product is more stable then pellets which degrade faster.
I would imagine yakima would have run some test to give you a pretty good idea of the contributed IBU's.
IBU's seem to be a very loose term anyway nowadays.

Yakima would have to run actual tests on your system which is obviously not the case. I don't know why they even give tentative values which might induce exaggerated expectations in the consumer.

 

[beervoid]

Yakima would have to run actual tests on your system which is obviously not the case. I don't know why they even give tentative values which might induce exaggerated expectations in the consumer.

Good point. So the least they could do is release the systems hop utilization nrs, concerning their supposed IBU nrs.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Does anyone sell isomerized extract?

 

[couchsending]

Atm im putting 10ml in 10 gallon batch. Definately getting a bitterness from it, but I have to say for the calculated 50ibu it tastes barely more bitter then a pellet addition calculated at 10-20 ibu.
Did you experience a cleaner less lingering bitterness from your experiments with it?

I just experienced less bitterness in general.

I personally don't really believe that extracts impart a “cleaner less lingering bitterness” than pellets. You might get less “vegetal” flavor cause you’re not boiling vegetal matter for 90 minutes but honestly I think you can get just as “clean” of a bitterness if using a “clean” bittering hop. Lingering bitterness has more to do with water chemistry and pH and hop variety IMHO. I know for a long time people talked about cohumulone levels and their impact on bitterness but I think that’s been debunked. However if that has been debunked I’m not sure what the component is in certain hops that causes a “harsher” bitterness when boiled. Heard many times that Amarillo early in the boil can be harsh as well as Vic Secret among others.

@bierhaus15 any insight here?

 

[couchsending]

Does anyone sell isomerized extract?

Not on the Homebrew scale.

 

[beervoid]

I just experienced less bitterness in general.

I personally don't really believe that extracts impart a “cleaner less lingering bitterness” than pellets. You might get less “vegetal” flavor cause you’re not boiling vegetal matter for 90 minutes but honestly I think you can get just as “clean” of a bitterness if using a “clean” bittering hop. Lingering bitterness has more to do with water chemistry and pH and hop variety IMHO. I know for a long time people talked about cohumulone levels and their impact on bitterness but I think that’s been debunked. However if that has been debunked I’m not sure what the component is in certain hops that causes a “harsher” bitterness when boiled. Heard many times that Amarillo early in the boil can be harsh as well as Vic Secret among others.

@bierhaus15 any insight here?

I read conflicting info on sulfate, some say it makes the bitterness lingering some say it makes it sharper but less lingering.
Any thoughts?

I put my bittering additions as pellets in the boil with a filter and take them out after 10min. Seems to me this is similar to using extract.

 

[Vale71]

Does anyone sell isomerized extract?

Here you go:

https://www.hoptech.com/products/iso-alpha-extract-2-oz

 

[RocketBrewer]

Thats also a mystery to me.
I had to put the AA% to 100 to get the ibu's near what yakima says it should give. 10ibu at 1ml per 5 gallons.

This is exactly what I did as well.

The way I use the extract is to fully dissolve it in some grain alcohol in a metal measuring cup and add it BEFORE reaching a boil. The problem with adding extract directly to the kettle is it won't dissolve well and wants to just go to the side of the kettle and stick, wasting most of the extract. I've found adding extract dissolved in alcohol directly to an active boil will cause a pretty violent vaporization of the alcohol that my affect how well the extract is incorporated as well, not to mention possibly burning the tar out of your hand if you get too close. I've been happy with the extract so far and have been using it for the main bittering charge in many of my brews (especially IPA's). Using extract can reduce the hop matter and wort loss quite a bit in big IPA's like double and triples. I was also quite frustrated trying to clean my measuring cup until, as someone else mentioned, I tried hot PBW on it.

Cheers!

 

[beervoid]

This is exactly what I did as well.

The way I use the extract is to fully dissolve it in some grain alcohol in a metal measuring cup and add it BEFORE reaching a boil. The problem with adding extract directly to the kettle is it won't dissolve well and wants to just go to the side of the kettle and stick, wasting most of the extract. I've found adding extract dissolved in alcohol directly to an active boil will cause a pretty violent vaporization of the alcohol that my affect how well the extract is incorporated as well, not to mention possibly burning the tar out of your hand if you get too close. I've been happy with the extract so far and have been using it for the main bittering charge in many of my brews (especially IPA's). Using extract can reduce the hop matter and wort loss quite a bit in big IPA's like double and triples. I was also quite frustrated trying to clean my measuring cup until, as someone else mentioned, I tried hot PBW on it.

Cheers!

Will give this a try thanks. How much alcohol do you use per how much extract?
When I tried with vodka at 40% It didnt totally dissolve even after a long shake.

How would you describe the bitterness profile you get from the extract vs pellets?
How much do you typically use?

 

[bierhaus15]

I just experienced less bitterness in general.

I personally don't really believe that extracts impart a “cleaner less lingering bitterness” than pellets. You might get less “vegetal” flavor cause you’re not boiling vegetal matter for 90 minutes but honestly I think you can get just as “clean” of a bitterness if using a “clean” bittering hop. Lingering bitterness has more to do with water chemistry and pH and hop variety IMHO. I know for a long time people talked about cohumulone levels and their impact on bitterness but I think that’s been debunked. However if that has been debunked I’m not sure what the component is in certain hops that causes a “harsher” bitterness when boiled. Heard many times that Amarillo early in the boil can be harsh as well as Vic Secret among others.

@bierhaus15 any insight here?

As mentioned, "clean" and "lingering bitterness" are two separate issues, but I do believe that C02 extract provides a more singular/clean bitterness expression than using T90 pellet hops of the same variety. For instance, Apollo or Hercules pellets would almost never be used in a German made helles/pilsner for bittering, but those hops as C02 extract are among the most widely used for the same styles. There are also other forms of hop extract (ethanol, ect) that preserve more of the original character of the hop (and things like glycosides) for those who feel C02 bitterness is one dimensional. That said, this really doesn't apply to the average IPA home brew. Use the product that gets you the character you want.

As for lack of bitterness via extract, most commercial systems are getting far better utilization and 30-35% is not uncommon, especially when using calandrias. I'd bet most 5-10 gallon pots would struggle to get 25% utilization and lack of a heating jacket can allow hop extract to adhere to the sides of the vessel and bind to trub and hop material.

 

[Vale71]

Will give this a try thanks. How much alcohol do you use per how much extract?
When I tried with vodka at 40% It didnt totally dissolve even after a long shake.

How would you describe the bitterness profile you get from the extract vs pellets?
How much do you typically use?

I'm afraid you'd just be wasting alcohol without any improvement. As already mentioned alcohol will evaporate almost instantly at wort boiling temperatures and once the solvent is gone the hop resins will be just as insoluble as if you'd dumped in directly.

 

[RocketBrewer]

Will give this a try thanks. How much alcohol do you use per how much extract?
When I tried with vodka at 40% It didnt totally dissolve even after a long shake.

I've never measured the amount, but i'd guess about an ounce for one 3ml syringe, a little more for multiple syringes. I've just used a 1 cup metal measuring cup and stirred it with something like a Popsicle stick until it dissolved. The higher the alcohol proof, the easier it will be to dissolve.

How would you describe the bitterness profile you get from the extract vs pellets?
How much do you typically use?

I've felt that I was getting a little stronger bitttering than expected that tended to linger a little longer. As was mentioned, Beersmith calculates the IBU's much lower than Yakima suggests it should be, so on my last batch (a pale ale that's going into a keg tomorrow probably) I changed the AA to 100. If I remember correctly, that added about 27.5 IBU's for 3ml in a 5.5 gal 1.054 beer (pretty close to what Yakima claims). Bitterness is a very tough thing to quantify unless you want to have your beer analyzed. Perceived bitterness may be considerably different than actual measured IBU's. My goal is just to dial it to give me about what I perceive to be the expected bitterness I'm going for. Time will tell if 100%AA is the right number to use, or somewhere between that and the original number. As far as how much I use, that depends on the beer. I've used 3ml in a 5.5 gal batch up to 18ml in a 11 gal batch of Triple IPA.

 

[whovous]

I've been using a syringe of the horribly named Hopjizz CTZ-based CO2 extract. I put the syringe in very hot water for a very long time before adding it to the boil. I've never noticed anything stuck to the side during cleanup. Not sure about my flavor vocab here, but I'd describe the bitterness as being "smoother" than what I perceive from T90 pellets.

 

[beervoid]

As mentioned, "clean" and "lingering bitterness" are two separate issues, but I do believe that C02 extract provides a more singular/clean bitterness expression than using T90 pellet hops of the same variety. For instance, Apollo or Hercules pellets would almost never be used in a German made helles/pilsner for bittering, but those hops as C02 extract are among the most widely used for the same styles. There are also other forms of hop extract (ethanol, ect) that preserve more of the original character of the hop (and things like glycosides) for those who feel C02 bitterness is one dimensional. That said, this really doesn't apply to the average IPA home brew. Use the product that gets you the character you want.

As for lack of bitterness via extract, most commercial systems are getting far better utilization and 30-35% is not uncommon, especially when using calandrias. I'd bet most 5-10 gallon pots would struggle to get 25% utilization and lack of a heating jacket can allow hop extract to adhere to the sides of the vessel and bind to trub and hop material.

Apart from yeast, tannins and other unwanted stuff in the beer, do you know if a lingering bitterness is connected to the type of bittering hop used or if its purely a water profile or IBU amount thing?

 

[mongoose33]

I've been using a syringe of the horribly named Hopjizz CTZ-based CO2 extract. I put the syringe in very hot water for a very long time before adding it to the boil. I've never noticed anything stuck to the side during cleanup. Not sure about my flavor vocab here, but I'd describe the bitterness as being "smoother" than what I perceive from T90 pellets.

At one point Morrey and I brewed the same recipe for a California Common with one exception: I bittered with Northern Brewer hops, he bittered with the Yakima Valley hop shot.

The two were very similar, very similar, with this exception: his bitterness was "smoother" while mine had a bit more bite to it. Both were very nice beers. So you're not the only one to draw that conclusion.

I've been using hop shots now for about the last....11 brews. I like 'em.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've long suspected and IMO observed, that pellet hops can cause a rougher, unpleasant bitterness because of all the broken cell walls and chlorophyll, etc. Maybe that's just my impression but for that reason I tend to use whole hops for FW and early additions. I save the pellets for late additions, whirlpool, hopstands, dry- and keg-hopping.

 

[bierhaus15]

Apart from yeast, tannins and other unwanted stuff in the beer, do you know if a lingering bitterness is connected to the type of bittering hop used or if its purely a water profile or IBU amount thing?

There have been a number of studies that looked at the variety/type of hop product used for bittering and the resulting quality of bitterness; in short, there are significant differences between variety and the type of product used. Studies have also generally found that people prefer beers bittered with low CoH hops.... ect.

However, some recent work has shown that hop age and processing factors may have more to do with the perceived quality of iso-bitterness than we assumed. For instance, freshly pelletized hops often score lower for bitterness quality than pellets that are a few months older. But old and oxidized hops scored lowest of all, regardless of variety.

And pH is extremely important. High beer pH significantly increases the impression of harsh and more lingering bitterness, while low pH can both lower the impression of bitterness and increase the perception of astringency. A common figure is that 18-25% of the total perceived bitterness of a beer can be adjusted by changing the pH.

All said, however, most of these findings completely go out the window once you introduce dry hopping into the equation.

 

[whovous]

But hop age is a non-issue with CO2 extract, right? Mine is at least a few years old, and I've detected no difference.

 

[Vale71]

But hop age is a non-issue with CO2 extract, right? Mine is at least a few years old, and I've detected no difference.

Hop extract is not eternal and it's still subject to aging but at a very slow rate, provided the package is sealed. The ballpark figure is up to ten years at room temp. To really preserve extract forever you'd need to dunk it in liquid nitrogen like they do with.. herm.. "human samples".