best time to dry hop( first attempt)

[redarmy990]

Good afternoon fellow brewers,
I brewed a pale ale last Saturday, bulk of fermentation is now complete. from 1.042 down to 1.013. Just slowly increasing temps from 66 to 70/72. To bring it down to around 1.009
Just trying to figure out best time to dry hop, around now or wait until beer is kegged and use a hop bag, tied to inside lid of keg.
Will be dry hopping with El Dorado.

 

[Jag75]

I have found that dry hopping 3-5 days before packaging is best for me. Hops shine brighter imo.

 

[HobbitBeer]

Keg hopping is slightly different than dry hopping, and while a lot of people recommend it, I've never found that it imparts the expected character to my beer. If I were in your shoes, I'd dry now while you have a bit of CO2 left to blanket your fermenter which will help with retaining the hop flavor and aroma. Might get a little bit of bioconversion in there too.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I have found that dry hopping 3-5 days before packaging is best for me. Hops shine brighter imo.

IMO, absolutely agree. Or, even better, at packaging. Drink quickly before losing the hop aroma.

 

[Jag75]

IMO, absolutely agree. Or, even better, at packaging. Drink quickly before losing the hop aroma.

Don't know what you mean by quickly, but my last IPA was still nice and fresh until the last pour .

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Don't know what you mean by quickly, but my last IPA was still nice and fresh until the last pour .

By "quickly" I mean the great hop aroma was gone too soon. Beer was still great, a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, but the aroma was gone.

 

[Jag75]

By "quickly" I mean the great hop aroma was gone too soon. Beer was still great, a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, but the aroma was gone.

What time line are we talking ? Just kicked a keg of IPA , probably about 8 weeks and still had good aroma .

 

[redarmy990]

Thanks guys and gals,
Just done my dry hopping, I have a catylist fermentor, so cleaned and sanitized a mason jar and added hops to that, then attached and opened ball valve. Hopefully the hops get pulled up and mixed in.

Time will tell. Trial and error to time.

 

[Jag75]

Thanks guys and gals,
Just done my dry hopping, I have a catylist fermentor, so cleaned and sanitized a mason jar and added hops to that, then attached and opened ball valve. Hopefully the hops get pulled up and mixed in.

Time will tell. Trial and error to time.

Nice . I have a fastferment with a collection ball and have thought about dry hopping this way . The only negative I thought about doing this was the o2 from the ball would be forced into the fermenter. I dont use it much anymore . Interested to know how it works . Keep us posted .

 

[redarmy990]

Nice . I have a fastferment with a collection ball and have thought about dry hopping this way . The only negative I thought about doing this was the o2 from the ball would be forced into the fermenter. I dont use it much anymore . Interested to know how it works . Keep us posted .

Will do

 

[redarmy990]

Hoppy goodness definitely getting up into the beer.

 

[Vale71]

Keg hopping is slightly different than dry hopping, and while a lot of people recommend it, I've never found that it imparts the expected character to my beer. If I were in your shoes, I'd dry now while you have a bit of CO2 left to blanket your fermenter which will help with retaining the hop flavor and aroma. Might get a little bit of bioconversion in there too.

Now on offer in aisle 2: get 2 brewing myths for the price of one. This week's special: the CO2 blanket and biotransformation.

 

[TonyW]

Now on offer in aisle 2: get 2 brewing myths for the price of one. This week's special: the CO2 blanket and biotransformation.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm going to disagree that the CO2 blanket is a myth and here is my reasoning:
I spent 15 years working in powerplants with Hydrogen cooled generators, you NEVER want H2 to mix with atmosphere since the explosive range is 4%-74% H2 in air or4%-94% in O2. When it was time to remove or replace the H2 for outages we had a set order of doing that so we were never in that range inside the generator. Our first step was to vent the H2 from 35 psi to 5 psi out of the top of the generator to a safe location, after this was done we would start putting CO2 into the bottom of the generator while still venting the H2 out of the top. While we were doing this we would have the gas monitor lined up to the top vent waiting to see it go to 98% CO2 in H2. This process usually took 6+ hours and the monitor didn't gradually change, it would go from 1-2% to 98% in minutes when you had the H2 pushed out.

So now we have a casing that has been purged of H2 with CO2 and now need to replace that CO2 with air. To do this we now start venting the CO2 through the bottom of the casing and pushing air in through the top. We line the gas monitor up to the bottom vent and wait for it to get to 5% CO2 in air, this is the same 6+ hour process as pushing the H2 out and the monitor responds the same 98%+ then moments later 5% or less. To go back to H2 the process is reversed.

Now the entire time this process is happening the rotor inside the generator is turning at 3 rpm so the fans on both ends of the rotor are also turning at 3 rpm, meaning this isn't a totally static environment inside this casing. This is a process that if done incorrectly has the potential to leave a very large crater in the ground so it is done slowly and constantly monitored. If the air and CO2 were mixing you would see the monitor slowly go from 98% to less than 5% instead of the rapid change after hours or purging.

Rant off.

 

[HobbitBeer]

Now on offer in aisle 2: get 2 brewing myths for the price of one. This week's special: the CO2 blanket and biotransformation.

Maybe I missed the boat, but, huh?

I'm not saying that the CO2 inside of the fermenter is impenetrable or something, but that you don't want O2 exposure. Active fermentation helps mitigate O2 ingress as long as the fermenter is sealed, no? Interested in your thoughts on this.

And as for biotransformation, has that been deemed a myth or something?

 

[Vale71]

I'm not saying that the CO2 inside of the fermenter is impenetrable or something, but that you don't want O2 exposure. Active fermentation helps mitigate O2 ingress as long as the fermenter is sealed, no? Interested in your thoughts on this.

The keyword here is "sealed". You open the fermenter air will come in and quickly mix with the mostly CO2 atmopshere inside. As for CO2 "helping retain hop flavor and aroma" that simply makes no sense. CO2 in and of itself doesn't provide any "seal", any volatile aromatics will evaporate and diffuse regardless of whether the atmospher inside the fermenter is made up of air or CO2.

And as for biotransformation, has that been deemed a myth or something?

There is zero scientific proof that yeast is "biotransforming" anything and that any difference that is apparent in the aroma profile when dry hopping during active fermentation is anything but the result of yeast adsorption and CO2 scrubbing. But it surely makes for some very catchy buzzwords that will have any marketing department salivating uncotrollably...

 

[HobbitBeer]

The keyword here is "sealed". You open the fermenter air will come in and quickly mix with the mostly CO2 atmopshere inside. As for CO2 "helping retain hop flavor and aroma" that simply makes no sense. CO2 in and of itself doesn't provide any "seal", any volatile aromatics will evaporate and diffuse regardless of whether the atmospher inside the fermenter is made up of air or CO2.


There is zero scientific proof that yeast is "biotransforming" anything and that any difference that is apparent in the aroma profile when dry hopping during active fermentation is anything but the result of yeast adsorption and CO2 scrubbing. But it surely makes for some very catchy buzzwords that will have any marketing department salivating uncotrollably...

Sorry, I disagree with your conclusion here. O2's an enemy to aroma and flavor, and CO2 preserves both.

While biotransformation might be buzzwordy, and it might not play a hugely significant role, or at least as large as was once thought, it's absolutely a thing, and there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting biotransformation as it pertains to yeast interacting with hop volatiles.

If you have any suggestions that might help OP with their question though, feel free to weigh in.

 

[Vale71]

CO2 doesn't preserve anything in itself so its presence is irrelevant. The moment you open a sealed fermenter air will come in and with it a lot of O2 that will damage the beer no matter how much residual CO2 you might have in the mix.

Feel free to provide links to this proof of biotransformation that you speak of.

 

[McKnuckle]

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Granted, it's just a yeast company (marketing), but perhaps still worth a look.

 

[Vale71]

"Recent studies have revealed the importance of biotransformation based on the catalysis of glycosidic bonds in the production of hoppy beers. "

Recent studies have shown zero glucosidase release from Saccharomyces yeasts. Other yeasts such as Brett do release glucosidase which is unfortunate as most Brett beers aren't dry hopped, Orval being one of the few exceptions.
Personally I find the attitude of some yeast manufacturers towards science quite appalling...

Here is a study of 317 different yeasts, 153 of those Saccharomyces strains. Only one Saccharomyces strain presented glucosidase activity and that only within the cell itself without any enzyme secretion:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...dase_activity_in_yeasts_of_oenological_origin

 

[McKnuckle]

Also some good reading on the CO2 blanket controversy is below. The TL;DR version is that the gases ultimately mix, but the speed at which they do is contingent on multiple variables. And more importantly, if one of the gases (CO2 in our case) is continually being produced, the other gas (O2) will eventually be repelled and purged from the mixture. That's the whole reason for opening the fermenter while fermentation is still active.

Can CO2 Form a “Blanket?”

Three CO2 Thought Experiments

 

[redarmy990]

Thanks for all the info guys and gals.
I was reading through with interest.

The one thing about my process or adding the dry hops
I did not open the fermenter, I have a catalyst fermenter and added hops to the collection jar at bottom, then opened the butterfly valve with blow off tube still attached. When butterfly was opened the blow off went crazy and then settled down.
Would this prevent o2 getting in there.

When I transfer to keg Keg is purged, I attach the racking device ( basically a screw on cup) To which I added tubing and a ball lock fitting on to keg. I then open the butterfly on fermenter and burp the keg periodically to allow beer to flow into keg.
All this time the fermenter is still sealed, not quite a closed transfer but it worked for me the last time I kegged.

Thoughts on this would also be welcome.

 

[McKnuckle]

When you add the hops from the collection jar, there is air in the jar as well. So when you open the valve, that air rushes up through the beer, into the headspace, and out the blow-off. How much stays in the beer - or more likely, in the headspace - is anyone's guess, although "people say" not to worry about it. And I probably wouldn't. I have a Catalyst too, although I've not dry hopped with it.

If you are obsessive and have the means to shoot some CO2 into the jar before attaching it to the Catalyst, that would be a best practice when adding hops in that manner.

Also, your transfer method is good. You can even keep the PRV open on the keg, as it's an egress point for the gas in the keg's headspace while it's being filled. Air won't enter through that as long as you're continuing to fill the keg.

You could also attach a hose, via QD, from the keg's gas port to the top of the Catalyst, venting CO2 from the keg into the fermenter's headspace as the latter empties.

 

[redarmy990]

When you add the hops from the collection jar, there is air in the jar as well. So when you open the valve, that air rushes up through the beer, into the headspace, and out the blow-off. How much stays in the beer - or more likely, in the headspace - is anyone's guess, although "people say" not to worry about it. And I probably wouldn't. I have a Catalyst too, although I've not dry hopped with it.

If you are obsessive and have the means to shoot some CO2 into the jar before attaching it to the Catalyst, that would be a best practice when adding hops in that manner.

Also, your transfer method is good. You can even keep the PRV open on the keg, as it's an egress point for the gas in the keg's headspace while it's being filled. Air won't enter through that as long as you're continuing to fill the keg.

Much appreciated. This was an experiment to see if even the hops would make it up into the beer, which they did.

Not obsessive at all, just trying with every brew to improve from the last. I havent brewed in a year due to work, and building a basement brew area, this was my first brew on the new all electric system.

 

[McKnuckle]

Certainly didn't mean "obsessive" in a derogatory way. I share your continuous improvement mindset. Here is a cool video on how to transfer from the Catalyst with near total O2 avoidance.

 

[redarmy990]

Certainly didn't mean "obsessive" in a derogatory way. I share your continuous improvement mindset. Here is a cool video on how to transfer from the Catalyst with near total O2 avoidance.

Fantastic video, thankyou