Berliner Weisse lag time?

[caphector]

I've been wanting to brew a second batch of berliner weisse, to compare to my first batch which used sour malt to produce the sour character. I picked up a packet of Wyeast 3191 from September of 2010 (didn't notice the date until I got home). Once I noticed how old it was I decided to make a starter to make sure I had enough cells even with the low gravity of the beer.

Smacked the smack pack, waited an hour, and then made a basic 1.040 starter. By the time the starter was done there was no change to the smack pack, but I knew I had an old pack so I pitched it to my starter.

Next day I brewed my beer (pasteurized at ~160° for 15 minutes, and thanks to a recipe error came in at 1.023) and checked my starter. There was not a lot of yeast at the bottom compared to other starters I've done, but I decanted and pitched anyway.

Generally, when I've pitched a starter I get activity after a few hours, but I know that 3191 is slow to take off. Next morning I'm getting a bit of positive pressure from the beer but no visible activity - nothing moving, no bubbles in the wort, no krausen.

I've heard the lag time for this yeast blend can be a bit high, but I'm concerned about the age of the yeast and the lack of any visible activity. So - should I RDWHAHB or start looking for a new batch of lacto and a neutral ale yeast?

 

[jtakacs]

i'd obviously wait, i just brewed a berliner on saturday and pitched the WL berliner blend (recent production) in half and the other half got a lacto-d for 12 hours and then an s-33 slurry.

the S-33 had a 6 hour lag after pitching. the WL blend had a 48+ hour lag... same wort... not sure the "blends" are the best bet for my tastes. i don't like the mystery and inconsistency.

its chugging along now, but it took a bit of time.. i brewed slightly out of style (1.034) for mine, but i'm not sure it'll make that big of a difference... i did not do a starter for mine as i had 4.0 gallons and figured the vial was enough and didn't want to upset the delicate balance of whatever they put in there with a starter... (i have no idea if that makes sense)

 

[Oldsock]

Any activity yet?

Did you see any activity in your starter? I wouldn't have decanted such a young starter, especially because the Lactobacillus isn't flocculant like yeast.

 

[caphector]

I didn't check for activity for my starter and only decanted about half of it, so hopefully I have enough lactobacillus. How soon should I taste sourness and how late can lacto be pitched if I didn't get enough?

I did get a krausen, but it's one of the thinnest I've seen. Looks more like the film you get when gently cooking stock then a normal krausen, with a film of tiny bubbles about a millimeter thick and a few larger bubbles. This isn't exactly unexpected as the beer likely doesn't have enough sugar to support a vigorous fermentation.

 

[BenjaminBier]

You should begin seeing big fluffy milky bubbles from the lacto activity. Can you keep it warm to around 80-100F?

It won't taste sour for a while. As the acidity increases from the lacto, it will begin tasting... how to describe... sort of light, kind of like the original taste but a bright version, not exactly citrusy but in that direction. It's possible you'll begin tasting those at this point. You might also get some of the wet hay aromas. Another way to think of it is "weird bread".

Like yeast Lacto will build up at the bottom of your carboy, but it isn't sticky like yeast, and if you give the carboy a little rock back and forth it will float up like whitish dust. If you have very little of this build up after this time, it probably needs some encouraging in the form of warmth or additional pitching.

 

[caphector]

I put the carboy in my computer room this morning; it's the warmest room of the house. I'll take it's temperature this evening and if it's not warm enough I'll throw it on a heating pad.

At this point, the krausen has vanished with the exception of one or two large-ish bubbles. Still swirling from the yeast activity and the airlock is still bubbling happily. I've got an image of it from yesterday morning (roughly thirty-six hours in) that I'll attach here. Apologies for the poor image quality.

No sign of any white dust at the bottom of the carboy yet, but I imagine that it's a bit soon yet to be seeing that.

 

[BenjaminBier]

Any change one way or the other? Had a taste of it yet?

 

[caphector]

The krausen stayed vanished, but when I pulled a sample it was down to 1.010 and had a pleasant sour tang to it.

 

[BenjaminBier]

Sweet! It should continue dropping for a while even without forming krauesen. Did you pick up some pH strips?

 

[caphector]

I didn't get any PH strips; what are they generally used for for this style? I thought you could just go by the flavor of the beer.

 

[El_Exorcisto]

You can... When it has finished out, bottle it. Don't crack one for at least a month. It most likely won;t peak for another couple months after that. pH strips will not change your product, just give you data that means nothing to you. Don't let it sit in the fermenter too long after it finishes out. The longer the yeast sits in such low pH, the more stressed it gets about waking up to bottle-condition.

 

[BenjaminBier]

pH strips are just a way to measure the acidity of your beer. But whether the acidity tastes good is more important. I was curious with my BW about how the taste would change as the acidity increased, and I wanted to organize those tastings according to some kind of objective scale.

 

[Bensiff]

Going off El Exorcisto, bottling early will result in a much quicker sour character than bulk aging.

 

[jtakacs]

i will be doing a primary only straight to bottling bucket on my BW - checking it 3 weeks, letting it stabilize for 7 days and bottling.

 

[caphector]

Just realized I never replied to this…

I'll be kegging this beer, not bottling it. I may rack it into a different carboy for more aging, but it won't be seeing bottles.

Also, it seems to have stalled out at about 1.009 to 1.010. I'm considering grabbing some dry yeast to see if I can't drop it a few more points, but I'm not sure it's worth the bother.

 

[dcHokie]

Dredging up an older thread here, but Wyeast just re-released 3191 as part of the July-Sept '12 Private Collection. I can't seem to find any info on whether its the same formulation as the last release (I shot them an email earlier and will report back).

I grabbed a pack that was manufactured on the 10th and I pitched it on the 15th. After reading through a few threads, and freshness notwithstanding, I was a bit surprised that the smack pack swelled up in just a couple hours. And now I've got a decent 1" krausen roughly 18 hours from pitching, not vigorous but certainly not slow.

 

[dcHokie]

And now I've got a decent 1" krausen roughly 18 hours from pitching, not vigorous but certainly not slow.

Check that, had to add a blowoff tube. I'm guessing they upped the sacch %...

 

[dcHokie]

Check that, had to add a blowoff tube. I'm guessing they upped the sacch %...

Looks like I was wrong.....email from Wyeast Labservices:

"This is the same formulation as last time. The lab will vary a little depending on the age of the pack."