Belgium saison...what's it supposed to taste like?

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odie

odie

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I was digging thru my stash of yeast and found a pack of saison???...so I got a recipe and tried it...

Never drank one before that I can recall and didn't know what to expect...

well I find it kinda tart or sourish? Did my beer spoil or is this kinda the norm for this type of yeast?
 
It's "Belgian" Saison, not Belgium! ;)

Saisons are all about showcasing yeast. They're typically very highly attenuated, 1.006 is very average. Some tartness could happen due to the strain used. The low final gravity (low in residual sugars) adds to that, less to compensate tartness.

What yeast was that?
 
Tart is totally normal for most Saison strains, sour is not. Of course that all is a matter of perception! Otherwise, they are generally dry, have some perceptible background hop and malt character, and are primarily identified by lots of fruit esters and a variety of different phenols.
 
ok...i guess TART it is...lol

the FG I had to measure several times it was so low...I swear I thought I saw less than 1.000 on the bulb???

Danstar Saison yeast I believe...
 
Belle Saison excretes glucoamylase enzyme so it will break down all the dextrines into sugars then into alcohol, so it is expected to end up under 1.000.
 
IslandLizard said:
It's "Belgian" Saison, not Belgium!
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Really? Correcting our grammar in public? We all make errors.* Why not just start a separate thread explaining the difference if it is that unbearable?

*You missed a set of quotation marks around "Belgium" while you were correcting.
 
IMG_6522.JPG

This is it. It came as a freebie with some other stuff. Can’t say I’d make it again [emoji53]
 
Tart/sour beers are an “acquired” taste. I don’t like em.
 
I love saisons but they did take a bit of effort to get into. If you want to taste a traditional example of the style check out Saison du Pont. IMHO, if you want to acquire a taste for Saisons it's better to start with some modern examples; try Hennepin by Ommegang, Tank 7 by Boulevard, or Apex Predator (my fave) by Off Color Brewing. Farmhouse styles in general are fascinating in their complexity and for me were a jumping-off point to really start appreciating other Belgian styles as well as sours and funky beers in general.
 
For what it's worth, whenever I end up with something like this and just want to know what it tastes like, I usually just do a gallon extract batch with pilsner extract and a neutral lowish ibu mix, and then if I like it I have plenty of new yeast to reuse. That's actually how I found out how much I like belle saison, but yeah it gets dry as F.
 
Might be too late but you need to be a little extra vigil in your clean up with diastaticus type yeast. Can be a real problem if you bottle your beer and get a cross contamination, gushers and broken bottles.

Can also cause trouble with kegging if you repitch yeast, a little goes a long way after a pitch or two.
 
ba-brewer said:
Might be too late but you need to be a little extra vigil in your clean up with diastaticus type yeast. Can be a real problem if you bottle your beer and get a cross contamination, gushers and broken bottles.

Can also cause trouble with kegging if you repitch yeast, a little goes a long way after a pitch or two.
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Oh yeah this is a great point. Saison was one of the first batches I brewed, under advice from my lhbs I double pitched with 3711+3724. Of course I had never heard of diaststaticus but it spread to just about every batch I brewed for several months. I thought it was a regular infection so I scrubbed and inspected everything with no luck until I noticed the tiny oring in the tip of my bottling wand. Beers were finishing as expected so I thought I'd solved it but still had intermittent gushers. Turns out they were refermenting in the bottles. I believe that diastaticus produces a biofilm which requires mechanical scrubbing to remove; vigorous rinsing followed by extended soaks in star san didn't kill it. Not even bleach could get at it under the oring. If I ever get an infection like that again I'll break down absolutely everything for a scrub and a boil. If it fits in my instant pot and can take the heat, I'll autoclave it. Hell, I almost quit brewing over that streak of bad batches.
 
Some diastaticus yeast do produce a bio film and need scrubbing to remove.

I have had two contamination I believe were diastaticus, the second time I had a lab test the slurry and confirmed it. Both time it came after the 5th repitch of a yeast. I thought there might be a slight funk a pitch or two earlier but was not sure. 5th pitch no mistaking the phenolic flavor and more attenuation. Only diastaticus yeast I know for sure I used was 3711 and it was many months earlier.

Diastaticus yeast does exist in the wild, but most contaminations are self inflicted.
 
odie said:
View attachment 649246
This is it. It came as a freebie with some other stuff. Can’t say I’d make it again [emoji53]
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How old is that package of Bell Saison? There's a "expiration date" on the back. Was it stored in a fridge or freezer all that time or just in a shoebox on a shelf somewhere? Maybe the test of time played havoc with it?

I brewed with Belle Saison once, when it came out, in my early brew days. I was surprised about fermenting beer at 80-85F could yield something that good! I had wrapped a heating blanket around the carboy and a few layers of towels. I used a fairly simple Saison recipe I found online, and substituted the yeast with Belle.
I don't recall it being sourish at all. Just very tasty and aromatic. I've been brewing Saisons regularly ever since, but using different yeasts, not Belle. She doesn't offer an abundance of depth in flavor, now I learned more about what Saisons are about.

I still have an old pack in the freezer that came with some equipment I acquired through CraigsList years ago. It's ancient. I doubt it had ever been stored refrigerated before I acquired it. I love experimenting, maybe I'll try it in a small batch, for the record.
 
Jayjay1976 said:
I love saisons but they did take a bit of effort to get into. If you want to taste a traditional example of the style check out Saison du Pont. IMHO, if you want to acquire a taste for Saisons it's better to start with some modern examples; try Hennepin by Ommegang, Tank 7 by Boulevard, or Apex Predator (my fave) by Off Color Brewing. Farmhouse styles in general are fascinating in their complexity and for me were a jumping-off point to really start appreciating other Belgian styles as well as sours and funky beers in general.
Click to expand...
I'm echoing JayJay here. If you like Belgian beers don't give up on Saisons because of this one experience. Variety within Saisons is amazing, from what tastes like a simple low alcohol thirst quencher to a most extravagant melange of dankness (read Brett) that took 3 years in the making, 2/3 of that in the bottle.
There's a reason Belgium is by some referred to as the Disneyland of Beer.

One Saison I brew starts out as a juicy pineapple bomb toward the end of fermentation (it's very drinkable as is, better than any "pineapple beer" I've had) then slowly transforms into a complex semi-fruity bright yellow glass of goodness for a day on the beach (or backyard). Dry, but no tartness.
 
Not expired yeast, 2020 date...fermented at 70 for a month...too long maybe? Or I'm just not used to drinking these?
 
odie said:
Not expired yeast, 2020 date...fermented at 70 for a month...too long maybe? Or I'm just not used to drinking these?
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Nope, that's not too old unless it was abused. 70F may be a bit low. Not out of range, but may stress the yeast? Many Saison yeasts are happier on the hotter side and deliver accordingly.
Lallemand said:
FERMENTATION RANGE 15 - 35°C (59 - 95°F)
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https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp..._LALBREW_PREM_BELLESAISON_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf
It does show some acid production in the graph on the sidebar, so you may be onto something.

You sure you don't have an infection in that beer?
 
My last beer was with this yeast. Very simple beer, 15 ibus bittering only, 60% pale, 40% spelt (wheat) flour. Og 1.03.

Chilled down to about 16c during active fermentation, room temperature afterwards, bottled after 11 days carbed with 4g sugar per half a litre.

It is not sour, maybe a tiny bit of tartness can be perceived, but this could also be because it is quite dry.

It is very clear and a really nice easy drinker. Think of bud light with a bit more yeast expression and much better foam and mouthfeel. My cheapest beer so far but also one of my favourites.

I used the crossmyloof lille saison which is repacked belle saison for 1.3 gbp per pack.

A fun beer! I actually am a bit disappointed that it is THAT clean tasting, as I wanted some peppery notes, but the result is still one of my favourites, just not what I was aiming for initially. This is a nice yeast.
 
Definitely a workhorse. I use this yeast when I want higher attenuation, frequently hitting low 90's even at cooler fermentation temps. For the record, I hate sour beers (even though my name in German was derived from sour beer!), but I don't like sweet beers either.
 
Dave Sarber said:
[...] but in the pic above, the expiration is 12/2020.
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It does look like an old package, but I don't see an exp. date on that image. Am I missing something?

We're still over a year away from 12/2020.

From the PDF I linked to earlier (my emphasis):
Storage
Belle Saison yeast should be stored in a vacuum sealed package in dry conditions below 4C° (39°F). Belle Saison will rapidly lose activity after exposure to air.

Do not use 500g or 11g packs that have lost vacuum. Opened packs must be re-sealed, stored in dry conditions below 4°C (39°F), and used within 3 days. If the opened package is re-sealed under vacuum immediately after opening, yeast can be stored below 4C° (39°F) until the indicated expiry date. Do not use yeast after expiry date printed on the pack.
 
Dave Sarber said:
Definitely a workhorse. I use this yeast when I want higher attenuation, frequently hitting low 90's even at cooler fermentation temps. For the record, I hate sour beers (even though my name in German was derived from sour beer!), but I don't like sweet beers either.
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Instead, you could add a little glucoamylase to your mash, and wort!
One of our club's brewers has been doing that to all his beers now, since he brewed a Brut last year. Surprisingly none are overly dry, actually.

Speaking of Diastaticus, WY3711 is allegedly known for digesting fermenters, if left to it. ;)
 
I kept it in my fridge. Had it for several months. I'm pretty sure the back said 2020 on it but can't swear to it. don't know how it was stored before I got it. I chose 70 (maybe it was 68) because I was gone for a month while it did it's thing and figured it would maybe go bad if I left it up in the 80s until I returned. I don't think it's infected. It looked fine when I kegged it. I was just expecting more hops and less tart I guess. I have no reference point from which to judge a saison.
 
I remember reading a few months ago about one of the yeast companies being sued over diastaticus yeast, when there was no indication on the packaging. Don't remember the details, I'm still swilling coffee, but that might account for the label change.
 
odie said:
I kept it in my fridge. Had it for several months. I'm pretty sure the back said 2020 on it but can't swear to it. don't know how it was stored before I got it. I chose 70 (maybe it was 68) because I was gone for a month while it did it's thing and figured it would maybe go bad if I left it up in the 80s until I returned. I don't think it's infected. It looked fine when I kegged it. I was just expecting more hops and less tart I guess. I have no reference point from which to judge a saison.
Click to expand...

IMG_20191021_192052323_HDR.jpg


Find a bottle of this for comparison.
 
Dave Sarber said:
I remember reading a few months ago about one of the yeast companies being sued over diastaticus yeast, when there was no indication on the packaging. Don't remember the details, I'm still swilling coffee, but that might account for the label change.
Click to expand...
That was Left Hand suing White Labs over their beer that kept attenuating after packaging. They spent millions on fixing the problem, even replacing all the (stainless!) piping in the brewery, etc. which still didn't fix it. Diastaticus can be tenacious! I think Brett may be easier to control (yeah, right!).

Since then, Diastaticus is more clearly labeled (like a warning), as well as yeast products containing the STA-1 gene.
 
As mentioned above find Saison DuPont, Boulevard Tank 7, Prairie Standard, Jester King Le Petite Prince for some ideas on what to expect. Saison is a very broad style with lots of yeast derived flavors allowable. Belle Saison is probably my least favorite strain for saison although many do enjoy it.
 
Check out Kveik yeast for good attenuation and fast fermentation at higher temps (up to 95f I've read!) with clean flavor. Its also not diastaticus so no fear of cross-batch contamination.
 
Used Belle Saison yeast for Tettnanger Hop based Saison i did a while back. Came out great. Had that solid "effervescent" yeasty Saison taste that i was hoping for. I would definitely use Belle again. Next time gonna try some Orange Peel in there as well
 
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odie said:
I chose 70 (maybe it was 68) because I was gone for a month while it did it's thing and figured it would maybe go bad if I left it up in the 80s until I returned. I don't think it's infected. It looked fine when I kegged it. I was just expecting more hops and less tart I guess. I have no reference point from which to judge a saison.
Click to expand...

I use this yeast quite a bit, and it definitely does fine above 80, even for extended periods of time. I have done many batches in my basement (ambient ~80 °F) for a month or so.

One thing that I have found is that the yeast seems to be more expressive when re-pitched from a slurry on the second or third generation. I am not sure if anyone else has noticed that, but I get my best results on re-pitches.
 
bucketnative said:
I use this yeast quite a bit, and it definitely does fine above 80, even for extended periods of time. I have done many batches in my basement (ambient ~80 °F) for a month or so.

One thing that I have found is that the yeast seems to be more expressive when re-pitched from a slurry on the second or third generation. I am not sure if anyone else has noticed that, but I get my best results on re-pitches.
Click to expand...

This is something I read all over the itnernet again and again. Looks like this yeast is still recovering from being dried for the first few batches and needs its time to fully shine.
 
Miraculix said:
This is something I read all over the itnernet again and again. Looks like this yeast is still recovering from being dried for the first few batches and needs its time to fully shine.
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Wonder if it would make sense to pick up a packet of Belle, do a small 1Liter starter, separate it into mason jars, and then do secondary starters off those for future brews. Makes it 2nd-3rd generation of the yeast (albeit from a clean 24-36 hour starter instead of full primary fermentation), and obviously benefit of having extra yeast now stockpiled.

This is what i do with most of my liquid yeasts. I build a 2liter starter off a smack pack, and then store it away in equal sized 100-125b cell slurries, and then build each brew's pitch off those
 
sicktght311 said:
Wonder if it would make sense to pick up a packet of Belle, do a small 1Liter starter, separate it into mason jars, and then do secondary starters off those for future brews. Makes it 2nd-3rd generation of the yeast (albeit from a clean 24-36 hour starter instead of full primary fermentation), and obviously benefit of having extra yeast now stockpiled.

This is what i do with most of my liquid yeasts. I build a 2liter starter off a smack pack, and then store it away in equal sized 100-125b cell slurries, and then build each brew's pitch off those
Click to expand...
Sounds like a solid plan!
 
Well I did harvest the yeast on this one...not sure it will be viable in a few months/year. I don't think I will try this style again until maybe next spring/summer.

The packet did feel pretty tight so I don't think it had been compromised.
 
sicktght311 said:
Wonder if it would make sense to pick up a packet of Belle, do a small 1Liter starter, separate it into mason jars, and then do secondary starters off those for future brews. Makes it 2nd-3rd generation of the yeast (albeit from a clean 24-36 hour starter instead of full primary fermentation), and obviously benefit of having extra yeast now stockpiled.

This is what i do with most of my liquid yeasts. I build a 2liter starter off a smack pack, and then store it away in equal sized 100-125b cell slurries, and then build each brew's pitch off those
Click to expand...
Man, if you could do this with a split batch, one with a 4th generation starter and one directly from the package, you would be my hero.
 
Ok the yeast is 10/2019 exp. brewed in late August. Drinking it as I type. Acquired taste
 

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