BeerSmith Water Profile & pH

[Will_the-new-brewer]

I am using BeerSmith3 and recently started working with the water profiles as I went from using store-bought drinking water for brewing to Distilled/treated water (based on profile).

With that said, I just saw the "brew steps" button on BS3 (I don't usually use this option as I learned without using BS). When I clicked the button, I noticed it had a Acid addition to adjust the pH (4.3ml) if I recall.

Where does BS3 come up with this quantity? I have yet to adjust my pH and would like to, but it has always confused me (still doing research). I thought it was based on the water used and water profile selected (because I read that the water profile can affect pH), but when I deleted the water information out of BS3, the 4.3ml of acid stayed there.

Very confusing...hopefully someone can shed some light on the BS3 calculation.

 

[Oginme]

BeerSmith calculates the acid requirement on the mash page. A couple of caveats regarding this value should be taken into consideration.

First, the value is based upon the correction needed to get from the measured pH to the target pH. If you have not measured the pH and entered it into the mash tab, then the acid value it recommends is meaningless.

Second, the model for mash pH used in BeerSmith overestimates the buffering capacity of the wort. This means that it calls for way more acid than is actually needed to get to the pH target. My figures has that error at around 60% over what you should actually add. The person who developed the pH model has stated pretty much that same figure here on HBT and has been requesting information on actual mash pH from users to try to correct his model. Once he has done that, it may take some time for Brad to fix it in the software. He is aware of the issue though.

 

[dpeters]

Use Brun Water, once you get it set up with your info etc...you will be much happier. I have compared the Brun Water calculations to my Beersmith2 and Beersmith2 is way off. I have gotten to the point where most of the time I don't even take the time to test PH of my mash anymore because it comes out so close to Brun Waters estimation.

 

[Oginme]

Use Brun Water, once you get it set up with your info etc...you will be much happier. I have compared the Brun Water calculations to my Beersmith2 and Beersmith2 is way off. I have gotten to the point where most of the time I don't even take the time to test PH of my mash anymore because it comes out so close to Brun Waters estimation.

BeerSmith 2 did not integrate the water salts properly to even consider the pH model it was using at the time. BeerSmith 3 has a totally new model based upon the work of Mark Riffe and integrates very well with the recipe. Using water salts alone, I get very close results. Taking into account the model error in buffering, I get as close with BeerSmith as I ever did with Brun Water.

 

[bracconiere]

i'll just say, if you want to adjust Ph..."get a meter".....

 

[dpeters]

I may have to upgrade to BeerSmith3 once they fix it. That would be really nice to have everything all in one program.

 

[eric19312]

I’m getting better results with BeerSmith 3 than Bru’n water or some of the other models discussed here on HBT. Was really surprised but seems to be handling my water well and much easier than using multiple programs. I do have a ph meter so by better results I mean landing on my target ph.

 

[enkamania]

Beersmith3 is fine unless you have a lactic acid addition. At a minimum half the lactic acid addition.

 

[Oginme]

i'll just say, if you want to adjust Ph..."get a meter".....

If a brewer is trying to control mash pH without any means of measuring pH, then they are just playing around with an unknown and can do just as much harm as good. No modeling program can account for the variable nature of different malts and malting practices which influence the pH contribution that malt makes to the mash.

 

[bracconiere]

If a brewer is trying to control mash pH without any means of measuring pH, then they are just playing around with an unknown and can do just as much harm as good. No modeling program can account for the variable nature of different malts and malting practices which influence the pH contribution that malt makes to the mash.

i once tried adjusting the mash ph without a meter, a few times, a long time ago...was wondering why it wouldn't ferment...damn calc had me adding so much gypsum...ph must have been in the 2 range....

now i use a meter, adjusting the ph really just gets me an extra few points of efficiency. i didn't adjust the ph my last batch got 70% (according to beersmith) normally when i adjust it i get ~80%

(my water is REALLY hard, and at dough in my mash is in the 4.9 range)

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

i'll just say, if you want to adjust Ph..."get a meter".....

Agreed...before I get one, I want to know that I am actually going to use it.

I am still a fairly new brewer (15 months now) and bought some test strips just to build the check into my process. The past 15 months worth of beer have been just fine and producing very crushable beer (for the most part). With that said, pH is the next step to improve my beer just a little bit more. I want to make sure I understand it all before I go spend money on a meter I am not going to use.

I will look at the mash page and see what it shows. Thanks all!

 

[Big Monk]

No modeling program can account for the variable nature of different malts and malting practices which influence the pH contribution that malt makes to the mash.

You certainly can by titrating the malt and determine that specific malts parameters.

It is, however, generally very time consuming and if you aren't buying large amounts of the malts you use it's going to be prohibitive.

If you have those parameters to input into a sheet that will accept it, then you wouldn't need a meter except to double check. I'll concede that doing so would be the exception rather than the rule though.

 

[Oginme]

You certainly can by titrating the malt and determine that specific malts parameters.

It is, however, generally very time consuming and if you aren't buying large amounts of the malts you use it's going to be prohibitive.

If you have those parameters to input into a sheet that will accept it, then you wouldn't need a meter except to double check. I'll concede that doing so would be the exception rather than the rule though.

Right, and that works until the next crop year or lot. I buy bags of Rahr 2-row for base malt and go through just about one a year. Ditto with the Weyermann floor-malted Bohemian Pilsner. Every bag I buy is just a little different from the one before. Source fields vary, cultivar blends vary, seasonal effects give slightly different mineral balances, protein levels, etc.

Sure the Rahr gives me results within +/- 0.1 pH units of the previous lots and the Weyermann is just a little bit more variable, if you have a model that takes into account every malt and updates for every lot produced, then you can possibly bank on it.

 

[Big Monk]

Right, and that works until the next crop year or lot. I buy bags of Rahr 2-row for base malt and go through just about one a year. Ditto with the Weyermann floor-malted Bohemian Pilsner. Every bag I buy is just a little different from the one before. Source fields vary, cultivar blends vary, seasonal effects give slightly different mineral balances, protein levels, etc.

Sure the Rahr gives me results within +/- 0.1 pH units of the previous lots and the Weyermann is just a little bit more variable, if you have a model that takes into account every malt and updates for every lot produced, then you can possibly bank on it.

The point is that the model exists. If you have the DI pH and titration coefficients for that specific malt, you can use the concept of proton deficit to get a very reliable pH estimation.

The problem is not lot variance but rather getting the titration information.

 

[eric19312]

Beersmith3 is fine unless you have a lactic acid addition. At a minimum half the lactic acid addition.

Really ... not in my case. I’m using the BeerSmith 3 lactic addition and hitting my target. It does seem like a lot but I’ve been brewing 100% light colored base malts lately with moderate salt additions. Maybe it’s not good if you use a lot of specialty malts but for this it’s working well.

 

[bracconiere]

Agreed...before I get one, I want to know that I am actually going to use it.

i got a milwaukee MW-101 for $65 back in 2013, it's gotten slow but still is accurate...i like the manual calibration one's, my first auto one crapped out after a few weeks....


and, also, i use it for all kinds of stuff, not just brewing. you never know how much H/OH mater till you measure......

 

[skarp0ye]

The person who developed the pH model has stated pretty much that same figure here on HBT and has been requesting information on actual mash pH from users to try to correct his model. Once he has done that, it may take some time for Brad to fix it in the software. He is aware of the issue though.

Would you happen to know where i can find this? Thanks

 

[Oginme]

Would you happen to know where i can find this? Thanks

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/beersmith-3-ph-tool.653778/page-2#post-8512571

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wanted-mash-ph-measurements.661544/