How big is the pack?! I'm trying to input cell count for Lallemand's New England yeast strain but can't because I'm missing vital information. Also, when they say medium to high attenuation, how does that correlate (roughly) to min/max attenuation?
Beersmith - cells per pack
- Thread starter RustyHorn
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,983
- Reaction score
- 958
Homebrew packets are 11 grams with a stated "Living Yeast Cells ≥ 1 x 109 per gram of dry yeast". For the attenuation, I would peg it at around 76% to 77% for the first brew and then adjust based upon the results I see from that batch for subsequent brews using that yeast.
Ok, so in the cells per pack I should enter 11 billion? This seems too low as Nottingham, according to beersmith, has 200 billion per packet. However, on the Lallemand stat sheet, Nottingham only contains 5x more (55 billion cells per packet). I'm really confused!
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,983
- Reaction score
- 958
It is the information straight from the Lallemand web site. http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/lalbrew-new-england/
Remember also that many of the ingredients on the BeerSmith database may have been entered in by other users. I always look up the specs for the ingredients from the supplier and re-enter them as published
Remember also that many of the ingredients on the BeerSmith database may have been entered in by other users. I always look up the specs for the ingredients from the supplier and re-enter them as published
But are you sure Beersmith bases their count on 11g? I've been grossly underpitching if that's the case. Though, I don't think I have.
What I want to know is how do beersmith calculate cells per pack as it can't be based on 11g.
What I want to know is how do beersmith calculate cells per pack as it can't be based on 11g.
Further development... The Lallemand website has a pitching rate calculator (New England isn't yet included). For Nottingham, Beersmith recommends 10.4g based on 1.079 in 12l but Lallemand recommend 12g (that will produce 60 billion cells). Beersmith says 200 billion cells per packet, but Lallemand suggest more than one 11g packet and put the number at under 60 billion per packet. Argh! It's so confusing.
Anyone have any ideas what beersmith means by cells per pack?
Anyone have any ideas what beersmith means by cells per pack?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
So you're trying to brew with a yeast pack that doesn't exist yet? As far as I know, Lallemand have not yet released the "official" retail packs of New England yet, allegedly because they've been having shelf-life problems with the smaller packs. I've seen places breaking up 500g packs on an unofficial basis though.
The standard Lallemand pack size is 11g, although we'll have to see if they end up increasing that for New England. Their standard cell count is "over" 5 billion cells per gram, so 55 billion per standard retail pack.
As for brewing performance, allegedly you may find that copying the details of WLP4000 might hypothetically give you something possibly similar to Lallemand New England.
I can get it in 25g packets. Just to recap, Lallemand have said 1 billion cells per gram. You've come up with yet another very different answer. Why is this so confusing? [emoji23]
My question is more about how to enter it into beersmith as it can't be based on 11g packets. What do they mean by per packet?
Where have you seen this?
NVM, I found it. It must be a typo.
I used to do that, but now I try and pitch the right amount. It's not just about making beer; I want to make the best beer I can! Pitching rates are important.
11g if New England yeast in 5 gallons would be a major under pitch and might cause problems.
It's not a typo. The technical representative for Lallemand has also confirmed this in an email.
Ok.
I'd probably make better beer if I paid as much attention to detail as you do. I make good beer. I should probably try to make great beer.
Kudos.
In case it's not obvious, I'm not being sarcastic. I think my beers are fine, but yours are probably better.
Beersmith is a tool, but it's not perfect.
True, I'm just trying to better understand how it comes to that conclusion.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Those 25g packets aren't official ones though, are they? They represent a 500g pack that a third party opened, with the viability hit that entails, and then repacked.
Although >5 billion per gram is the standard Lallemand amount, it's not the same for all their strains - they say >7 billion per gram for Windsor for instance. I'd guess they're only quoting >1 billion viable cells for New England to take account of the viability problems they've been having with this particular strain.
If Beersmith is saying 200 billion for a pack of Nottingham then either they're saying they've measured actual viability and found that "over 5 billion /g" is actually 18 billion when measured, or more likely, it's just a mistake and someone's just used the number for pack of Imperial liquid yeast. What do the other Lallemand strains say for yeast per pack?
On beersmith, every Lallemand product is 200 billion cells per pack. So, I'm guessing it's just a rough number they've used. And quite some way out from the truth. However, if I put in Lallemand's real cells per pack, I still get the same pitching rate. How is beersmith working this out? Surely there is a big difference between 200 billion and 55 billion? (Other than the obvious 145 billion).
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
No idea. You're probably better off asking on the Brewsmith forum?
I was thinking that but couldn't be bothered to sign up! I will now though. If anything, to put my mind at rest!
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,983
- Reaction score
- 958
When you say "pitching rates" are you looking at the starter tab in the recipe? If this is the case, then the pitching rate is dependent upon the type of beer being brewed (ale, lager, or hybrid) and the OG of the recipe, not the type or packet size of the yeast.
I'm pretty sure it's not there for decoration ;-) Beersmith is a spreadsheet so the values entered in the boxes become part of a mathematical equation. Yeast cells per pack tells the spreadsheet how many are in a certain value (11g in this case). By knowing how much is in a gram, the spreadsheet determines how much yeast is needed to correctly pitch in a wort of a certain style, gravity, and volume.
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,983
- Reaction score
- 958
Since I plate and store my own yeast strains, do cell counts, and calculate the pitching rate (which usually refers to number of billion viable cells needed), I am perfectly aware of how the calculator works. When I look at the starter tab, the program gives you a recommendation on the number of packs of yeast needed based upon the cell count specified in the package and if a starter is going to be used. While there is a column for 'dry yeast recommendation' which is in the lower right of the tab, it does not appear to change with any yeast and package cell count presented. My guess is that it is an artifact from a previous version due to the fact that the numbers do not change at all.
So it seems. I'm going to post on the Beersmith forum to find out what's going on!
