Beer Smith question

[fourfarthing]

I frequently will pull 1-2 Liters off sweet wort from my mash and stow them in the fridge to use to krausen (technically, i think its gueuze...) my beer when bottling.

My question, to anyone that knows Beersmith, is where would you make the change in your equipment profile to adjust for this. I point to equipment as this is pre-boil, so I can't just re-size the recipe without skewing all of the IBU metrics.

Thanks!

 

[kh54s10]

I think all you need to do is to increase the batch size slightly on the recipe design page.

On second though you will have calculate everything for a larger batch then boil 1-2 liters less. I personally wouldn't worry about the difference.

Up the batch size to account for 1-2 liters taken from the mash, then boil the rest. The hop utilization will be changed but, IMO, not enough that you will notice.

 

[bleme]

Increase the dead space in your mash tun.

 

[fourfarthing]

Increase the dead space in your mash tun.

I tried that one, but it didn't factor in the impact to the pre-boil gravity and subsequently the OG, so I kept missing my gravity numbers low.

I then resized, but had too many IBUs. Seems like there is a trick out there that would work for this though.

 

[bleme]

I tried that one, but it didn't factor in the impact to the pre-boil gravity and subsequently the OG, so I kept missing my gravity numbers low.

I then resized, but had too many IBUs. Seems like there is a trick out there that would work for this though.

Ahh, I wasn't thinking about 1st runnings, probably because I do mostly BIAB. Unless you pull it from your kettle after 1st running and sparge are mixed, I don't think there is a way in Beersmith.

 

[Stillraining]

Unless you did a 100% mash/lauter to where you can account for the loss someplace, then this will be almost impossible for Beersmith to accommodate as it is now written. Your pulling a known portion of an unknown first running OG which is a very high OG compared to the final "mixed and measured" OG that the program is using for its calculations, then expecting the program to adjust that final number to account for it.
Send Brad an email, but I dont see how it can be done accurately myself.

 

[Oginme]

You can do it by increasing the dead space in your mash tun, but you will also need to make a change in your brew house efficiency to account for that loss. Otherwise, BeerSmith will recalculate the mash efficiency to give you more sugars pulled from the grains. This is why when you just increased that loss, you ended up missing your numbers.

 

[Stillraining]

You can do it by increasing the dead space in your mash tun, but you will also need to make a change in your brew house efficiency to account for that loss. Otherwise, BeerSmith will recalculate the mash efficiency to give you more sugars pulled from the grains. This is why when you just increased that loss, you ended up missing your numbers.

Would this not be a trial and error approach? As you wont know what that efficiency down grade adjustment needs to be until you have the final numbers to work with. Which I believe is not what the OP is trying to get the program to tell him. I could be misunderstanding him but I dont think I am.
Also any losses no mater where listed will be made up by the program as additional water input needs to hit the chosen batch volumes which will still be altered by the removal (thinning) of any wort. I guess you could deselect "Adjust mash volume for losses" to circumvent the latter but I dont see a way around the former.

By trial and error you could get it very close I guess.

 

[Oginme]

Would this not be a trial and error approach? As you wont know what that efficiency down grade adjustment needs to be until you have the final numbers to work with. Which I believe is not what the OP is trying to get the program to tell him. I could be misunderstanding him but I dont think I am.
Also any losses no mater where listed will be made up by the program as additional water input needs to hit the chosen batch volumes which will still be altered by the removal (thinning) of any wort. I guess you could deselect "Adjust mash volume for losses" to circumvent the latter but I dont see a way around the former.

By trial and error you could get it very close I guess.

If I understand the OP correctly, he is pulling 1 or 2 liters from the wort for addition later when krausening. If he is pulling those from the wort collected from the mash, as he had indicated, then it needs to be counted somewhere in that step. Since the program does not allow for additional wort to be set aside, the logical spot would be to add it as "dead space" and then set it aside.

When he did that, his numbers were off for gravity readings, due to BeerSmith's reliance on BH efficiency instead of mash efficiency for calculating the amount of sugars needed from the wort. The initial move with adjusting the BH efficiency would be to ratio the new BH efficiency based upon the water volume increase.

If the OP chooses to collect the wort post boil, the amount of wort set aside can be factored into the 'loss for trub and chiller' and the same change in BH efficiency would still need to be made to account for the additional volume and associated gravity.

Once he has made a brew using these new settings, his actual achieved efficiency (both BH and mash) will be calculated on the 'session' tab as 'meas' values and a final adjustment can be made to bring him to a much better place.

 

[Stillraining]

Ya I guess that would work to some degree, but like I mentioned he is pulling off the first high sugar running's not from a equally infused OG wort, so to my pee brain it's not quite as cut and dyed as you put it.

 

[fourfarthing]

Thanks guys, I may just tweak down my efficiency based on my base batch size and then revise if I adjust any sizes going forward. For clarity, I do a no sparge and pull the krausen sweet wort about halfway through, so I would expect/hope it mimics the preboil gravity of the batch.

 

[Brewsader1]

You could increase your boil kettle loss then. Or just wait until you've boiled it all for five minutes and then pull it so you also know it is pasteurized too.

 

[fourfarthing]

I pasteurize prior to using it to prime, but its not a bad idea to do that prior to pulling it. I think my bigger issue is that I want to pull the wort pre-hops, and I FWH most of my beers, so it has to be pre-BK.

 

[IslandLizard]

Why not design the recipe exactly as you want it? Then duplicate it, add 5-10% to your volume and grain bill to get it to calculate for the (slightly) larger batch. Use the water/mash calculations from the duplicated recipe, remove your extra wort, then follow the calculations from the original recipe for everything after that.

Just out of curiosity, are you storing raw (unboiled) wort in your fridge for krausening the batch later? Why not boil it first, to pasteurize it?

I wonder how long sweet, boiled or unboiled wort can be safely stored in the fridge. Isn't there a (small) botulism risk?

 

[fourfarthing]

I am storing it unboiled (post mash out so denatured) and then boiling it prior to using it to krausen. Though I am rethinking that as this conversation goes on. I like to the two recipe concept, though it seems to be a bit painful, it would definitely meet my needs to get the water level and grain bill set in one recipe and the hops in a smaller recipe that reflects what hits the BK.

 

[IslandLizard]

I am storing it unboiled (post mash out so denatured) and then boiling it prior to using it to krausen. Though I am rethinking that as this conversation goes on. I like to the two recipe concept, though it seems to be a bit painful, it would definitely meet my needs to get the water level and grain bill set in one recipe and the hops in a smaller recipe that reflects what hits the BK.

I guess after the mashout (168-170F) it's pasteurized too.
Have you ever had the krausening wort turn sourish or funky during those 1-2 weeks it's waiting?

Is it deemed safe storing it for that long at the fairly high pH of 5.2-5.4?
"Stuff" can grow above pH 4.5. Or does refrigeration prevent that?

 

[brandonnys]

"Stuff" can grow above pH 4.5. Or does refrigeration prevent that?

Sealed in a sanitized, air-depleted vessel at refrigeration temperatures will preserve it well. You're essentially canning it. But all that's not really necessary, because you kind of want it to funk up. So RDWHAHB.

 

[fourfarthing]

I have not had any issues on the three batches I have bottled since putting this technique to use.

I should note that I store at 39F in a fully sanitized growler almost immediately after pulling the 1-2 liters (like, I put it in the fridge while my BK is ramping temp up to boil).