Batch Sparge w no HLT?

[JJWP]

Apologies if this sparging approach is already covered somewhere - I've searched and cannot find anything exactly like this. If it exists and has already been discussed please send me on my way.

So I've been thinking about my new build and I am wondering if it is possible to single temp infusion mash and batch sparge for 5 gallon batches (and maybe low gravity 10 gallon batches) in a converted keg MLT, while doing away with a dedicated HLT entirely.

The setup would basically be this:

1 15.5 gallon MLT +
1 15.5 gallon combo Boil Kettle/HLT +
1 pump
1 burner (heating the BK/HLT)

so, two vessels, single tier.

The process would be something like this -
1. Heat strike water to temp in BK/HLT
2. Pump strike water to MLT and dough in
3. Heat sparge water in BK/MLT
4. Mash out with FULL volume of sparge water - pump into MLT and mix in
5. 5 minute pump powered vorlauf
6. Drain only half of the MLT volume into the now empty BK
7. Stir up remaining half in MLT, and repeat steps 5-6 until full pre-boil volume collected

Now, I suppose the real question here is: how is this approach really that different than a traditional batch sparge where the MLT is basically run nearly dry, a second infusion is added and mixed, the vorlauf is repeated, and a second running taken?

It seems to me that there isn't really any reason to expect any significant drop in efficiency with this approach, and it has the benefit requiring only two vessels. Am I way off here?

Thoughts?

(for 10 gallon batches I suppose I could pull out an 5 gallon bucket to hold some water run through the process twice)

 

[winvarin]

I don't have a great deal of input. Primarily subscribing as I have been evaluating options for stepping up the capacity of my system and your idea is intriguing. One question about your steps though. What are you using for an MLT? If it's an insulated cooler, I understand step 2.

However, if your MLT is also a 15.5 gal converted keg, why the extra step? Couldn't you just heat your mash water to temp in the MLT and dough in directly without involving your BK/HLT in that step? I'd think you would get a jump on heating your sparge water that way and save a little time.

One more question about your pump powered vorlauf. This is just to plug some holes in my ignorance about using pumps (in which I have no experience). How does the vorlauf work when the pump is used? Do you just run a hose from the kettle valve to the pump in and back to the top of the kettle? How do you distribute the water in a way that does not encourage a channel in the mash? Does the hose just shoot water to a specific spot in the grain bed, or do you lay it over the grain bed so that the liquid seeps over the bed rather than shooting to a specific spot? How fast is the liquid flow that you would use? Do you use any sort of attachment on the hose end to diffuse the liquid?

Sorry for the rapid fire questions. I'm just trying to learn along with you

 

[DrawTap88]

JJWP, it could work. I have done something like that with a few of my brews, where I heated my sparge water in my boil pot/HLT and just dumped it on top of the grain bed before starting my vorlauf. The big draw back to that is that if you don't get your post boil volume you're SOL. It would be beneficial if you have an extra 5 gal pot laying around, it may be a good idea to heat up some extra water just in case. (I was a gallon low after my mashout this past weekend and just heated up an extra gallon and dumpted it on the mashed out grain bed with no ill effects.)

The other thing that I can think of that may be a disadvantage to you is maintaining an inch of water on the top of the grain bed while sparging. That would be difficult to do without a dedicated HLT.

Just my two cents.

 

[maida7]

I would recomend adding a bucket to the system.

At the end of the mash, vorlauf then drain off all the 1st runnings into the bucket(s).

CLOSE THE VALVE on the MLT

Pump or pour all the sparge water from the brew kettle into the MLT.

Stir the MLT, vorlauf and drain the MLT to the brew kettle.

Add the bucket of first runnings to the brew kettle.

start the boil.

With this set up you should have no problems doing 10 gallon batches. Even high gravity ones.

 

[JJWP]

I don't have a great deal of input. Primarily subscribing as I have been evaluating options for stepping up the capacity of my system and your idea is intriguing. One question about your steps though. What are you using for an MLT? If it's an insulated cooler, I understand step 2.

However, if your MLT is also a 15.5 gal converted keg, why the extra step? Couldn't you just heat your mash water to temp in the MLT and dough in directly without involving your BK/HLT in that step? I'd think you would get a jump on heating your sparge water that way and save a little time.

One more question about your pump powered vorlauf. This is just to plug some holes in my ignorance about using pumps (in which I have no experience). How does the vorlauf work when the pump is used? Do you just run a hose from the kettle valve to the pump in and back to the top of the kettle? How do you distribute the water in a way that does not encourage a channel in the mash? Does the hose just shoot water to a specific spot in the grain bed, or do you lay it over the grain bed so that the liquid seeps over the bed rather than shooting to a specific spot? How fast is the liquid flow that you would use? Do you use any sort of attachment on the hose end to diffuse the liquid?

Sorry for the rapid fire questions. I'm just trying to learn along with you

Winvarin -

I am hoping to use just one burner (bc that is all I have), so that is why I wouldn't heat the MLT directly, but it is a converted keg yes. I have toyed with the idea of putting the burner on some sort of swivel arm so that it could be easily moved to fire either vessel, but I haven't got that far yet.

For the pump powered vorlauf, I plan to drain from the kettle valve and pump to an suspended manifold at the top of the MLT that will disperse the returning wort over the top of the mash, so I don't think channeling will be a problem. I haven't built or tired this yet (I just got my first pump actually), but based on looking at other guy's systems I think it should work just fine. More knowledgeable folks maybe will disagree?

Basically, my brewing funds have been cut off (saving for a wedding and honeymoon) so I need to make do with what I've got. The desire to go to only two vessels if at all possible is because I live in a apartment and need to store my rig in our linen closet. Doesn't exactly win me a lot of points with SWMBO when we have company over..

 

[maida7]

Winvarin -

I am hoping to use just one burner (bc that is all I have), so that is why I wouldn't heat the MLT directly, but it is a converted keg yes. I have toyed with the idea of putting the burner on some sort of swivel arm so that it could be easily moved to fire either vessel, but I haven't got that far yet.

For the pump powered vorlauf, I plan to drain from the kettle valve and pump to an suspended manifold at the top of the MLT that will disperse the returning wort over the top of the mash, so I don't think channeling will be a problem. I haven't built or tired this yet (I just got my first pump actually), but based on looking at other guy's systems I think it should work just fine. More knowledgeable folks maybe will disagree?

Basically, my brewing funds have been cut off (saving for a wedding and honeymoon) so I need to make do with what I've got. The desire to go to only two vessels if at all possible is because I live in a apartment and need to store my rig in our linen closet. Doesn't exactly win me a lot of points with SWMBO when we have company over..

Sell the MLT keggle and buy a cooler MLT with a SS braid. I think you can get a 15 gallon cooler for 40.00 and the bulkhead and braid should run 40.00.

Perhaps you can get 150.00 for your keggle. That's a 70.00 profit. The cooler will hold your mash temps much more steady.

Then sell the pump and put the cooler on a table. Use the profits from the pump and keggel to buy more grain and hops.

 

[JJWP]

I would recomend adding a bucket to the system.

At the end of the mash, vorlauf then drain off all the 1st runnings into the bucket(s).

CLOSE THE VALVE on the MLT

Pump or pour all the sparge water from the brew kettle into the MLT.

Stir the MLT, vorlauf and drain the MLT to the brew kettle.

Add the bucket of first runnings to the brew kettle.

start the boil.

With this set up you should have no problems doing 10 gallon batches. Even high gravity ones.

I am hoping to avoid any additional vessels if at all possible (though, admittedly on 5 gallon pail would not be a big deal).

More, the question is really: would adding the complete sparge water volume to an undrained mash, draining half the mash, remixing and setting the grain bed, and draining the second half of the mash produce the same results as a regular old batch sparge? Sorry - that was a long sentence.

The way I batch sparge today (low 70s efficiency), is as follows:
1. mash for 60 or 90 minutes.
2. vorlauf with a 2 quart pitcher
3. drain first runnings
4. add ~185F sparge water to mash out at close to 170F
5. stir well
6. rest for 10 minutes
7. repeat vorlauf
8. drain second runnings

Seems to me that the proposed approach of adding the TOTAL sparge water volume BEFORE draining the first runnings would be ok as long as you halt the runoff 50% of the way through and mix the grains well to redistribute/suspend the sugars. Then you set the grain bed again with another pump powered vorlauf and start to runoff again.

EDIT: I guess this is essentially the same in basic principle as the No Sparge technique some people do, with the key difference that I'd be halting the runoff midway to remix the mash. I'd think this would basically yield lower gravity first runnings and higher gravity second runnings as compared to traditional runoffs - but wouldn't the end OG be ok?

I'm going to try this as soon as I can, but I'm probably a few weeks away from being able to do so.

 

[JJWP]

Maida - thanks for all the feedback so far.

I probably should have mentioned in my first post - I'm planning a HERMS coil setup (coil built into the BK/HLT that would double as an immersion chiller after the boil), so I'm not too worried about maintaining mash temps. I've also got a roll of reflectix laying around to insulate the keg MLT with. Plus, I'm going for the bling factor I suppose.

I do have a 48 quart cooler MLT, but I'm hoping to return it to service as a regular picnic cooler, while repurposing the copper slotted manifold as the new MLT manifold.

Brewing in an apartment that doesn't even have a spray head installed in the sink, I'm really trying to cut down on the number of vessels I need to clean or even rinse at the end of the brew day. I'm brewing with propane so I need to be outside, which is a whole other PITA. (I'm looking to go 1 tier so I can use the stand on wheels I built out of cut up bedframes)

 

[JJWP]

The other thing that I can think of that may be a disadvantage to you is maintaining an inch of water on the top of the grain bed while sparging. That would be difficult to do without a dedicated HLT.

I'm not sure I understand - I wouldn't have to worry about maintaining any water on top of the grain bed right? The only time there would be recirculation to the top would be doing th vorlauf step(s)...

 

[maida7]

I am hoping to avoid any additional vessels if at all possible (though, admittedly on 5 gallon pail would not be a big deal).

More, the question is really: would adding the complete sparge water volume to an undrained mash, draining half the mash, remixing and setting the grain bed, and draining the second half of the mash produce the same results as a regular old batch sparge? Sorry - that was a long sentence.

The way I batch sparge today (low 70s efficiency), is as follows:
1. mash for 60 or 90 minutes.
2. vorlauf with a 2 quart pitcher
3. drain first runnings
4. add ~185F sparge water to mash out at close to 170F
5. stir well
6. rest for 10 minutes
7. repeat vorlauf
8. drain second runnings

Seems to me that the proposed approach of adding the TOTAL sparge water volume BEFORE draining the first runnings would be ok as long as you halt the runoff 50% of the way through and mix the grains well to redistribute/suspend the sugars. Then you set the grain bed again with another pump powered vorlauf and start to runoff again.

EDIT: I guess this is essentially the same in basic principle as the No Sparge technique some people do, with the key difference that I'd be halting the runoff midway to remix the mash. I'd think this would basically yield lower gravity first runnings and higher gravity second runnings as compared to traditional runoffs - but wouldn't the end OG be ok?

I'm going to try this as soon as I can, but I'm probably a few weeks away from being able to do so.

Try it and see. I expect you will have a reduction in efficiency. Also, there's no way to do a 10 gallon batch. No way you'd fit all the mash, sparge and grain in a 15.5 gallon MLT.

Really what your doing is closer to no sparge or biab. In fact you could ditch the pump and the MLT and the fancy herms coil and just do biab with one keggle and one burner. no stand required. less to clean up. less equipment to store. win win win

 

[winvarin]

I'm not sure I understand - I wouldn't have to worry about maintaining any water on top of the grain bed right? The only time there would be recirculation to the top would be doing th vorlauf step(s)...

Agree. You're batch sparging, right? No need to maintain water over the grain bed.

 

[winvarin]

oops. accidentally hit unsubscribe link

 

[DrawTap88]

I'm not sure I understand - I wouldn't have to worry about maintaining any water on top of the grain bed right? The only time there would be recirculation to the top would be doing th vorlauf step(s)...

Yeah, sorry. With batch sparging you don't have to worry about that. I was thinking of fly sparging. (My coffee better start kicking in.)

 

[devilishprune]

I think that with this setup you're going to lose a few efficiency points from your usual. Basically, you're doing a no sparge brew if I understand you right.

If you add your sparge water to your first runnings, then what you have is essentially a mash out that is going to dilute your first runnings. If you then drain half of this and stir it up, you aren't going to get any appreciable amount of extra sugars out, because these would have already come out when you added your "mash out" water. At least, this is how I understand it.

I advocate adding a bucket to your system to store your sparge water while you pump from the mlt to the bk. That way, you can get your high gravity first runnings out and still get as many effective sparges as you want.

 

[Chemkrafty]

I am looking to do a very similar design to the one you describe. Its not a new concept. You may lose a few points of efficiency, but you should look at running your sparge in a manner similar to the Brutus 20 setup (do a quick search, there are tons). While many of those builds are automated, I am looking at the gravity drain MLT and the pumped HLT/BK. If space is an issue, take a look at the countertop thread. This system circulates the mash liquor until equilibrium and drains it all to the kettle. its a continuous vourlauf and somewhat like a continuous batch sparge (makes no sense, but take a look).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/

 

[bja]

I think that with this setup you're going to lose a few efficiency points from your usual. Basically, you're doing a no sparge brew if I understand you right.

If you add your sparge water to your first runnings, then what you have is essentially a mash out that is going to dilute your first runnings. If you then drain half of this and stir it up, you aren't going to get any appreciable amount of extra sugars out, because these would have already come out when you added your "mash out" water. At least, this is how I understand it.

I agree, and the way you're proposing will take more time and effort while gaining nothing.

 

[JJWP]

thanks all - the brutus 20 looks doable for me i think. i had heard of it a million times but never really looked into it bc I assumed from the name that it was just a 20 gallon setup with the regular three vessels. not exactly the most descriptive name to the uninitiated i suppose... but interesting design for sure.

sounds like some folks think it wont do better than 1.050 or so beers, and others report good results up to 1.080. i'll give it a try and see what happens i guess

 

[Reelale]

thanks all - the brutus 20 looks doable for me i think. i had heard of it a million times but never really looked into it bc I assumed from the name that it was just a 20 gallon setup with the regular three vessels. not exactly the most descriptive name to the uninitiated i suppose... but interesting design for sure.

sounds like some folks think it wont do better than 1.050 or so beers, and others report good results up to 1.080. i'll give it a try and see what happens i guess

I have a similar system to what you describe, the only difference is a RIMS in-line between the MLT and BK. I recirculate from the BK, like a grant. Mine is a true no-sparge system with one burner, one pump. I could easily adapt it for a batch sparge by holding the first runnings in a bucket. I just replaced the 50-quart cooler MLT with the sanke. But I was able to brew a 1.083 beer with this set-up with the cooler. That is the limit though, the MLT was quite full.