Batch sparge all at once, or in steps?

[corwin3083]

I just mashed in on a berliner weisse, and am idly wondering: Beersmith is telling me to batch sparge in two steps, 2.5gal and 3.5gal. Couldn't I just batch sparge once with 6gal total? Or would that be too thin a sparge with only 6# of grain? It would certainly be easier to sparge jst once.

Berliner Weisse v0.1
3# german pilsner
3# german wheat
.4oz tettnang
WLP630 berliner weisse blend

 

[Hammy71]

For batch sparging you want to mash with about 1.25qts/pound. Which is probably your 2.5 gallons. After you mash for an hour and drain, you'll need to rinse (sparge) the grain to get more of the sugar off and into your brew pot, that is the 3.5 gallons. Some people do a no sparge brewing process, but your efficiency will usually suffer (because your not rinsing the sugar off the grains). Your trying to get as much sugars out of the grain as you can. I split my sparge water amount in two and rinse the grains twice. Hope that makes sense.

 

[norsk]

Couldn't I just batch sparge once with 6gal total?

Yes...

I used to split my sparges but these days mash at around 1.5 qts/lb. then sparge with enough to reach my desired boil amount. Haven't noticed any decrease in efficiency...

The only time I do a double these days is when I use too much grain in the ice chest do be able to fit it all in at once.

 

[tgmartin000]

Single batch is faster with no difference in efficiency.

 

[davekippen]

I only use one "batch" of water to batch sparge

I use however much I need to reach the desired boil quantity (desired boil qty - first runnings qty). It never quite matches up with the computerized computational calculations

 

[Bulls Beers]

For batch sparging you want to mash with about 1.25qts/pound. Which is probably your 2.5 gallons. After you mash for an hour and drain, you'll need to rinse (sparge) the grain to get more of the sugar off and into your brew pot, that is the 3.5 gallons. Some people do a no sparge brewing process, but your efficiency will usually suffer (because your not rinsing the sugar off the grains). Your trying to get as much sugars out of the grain as you can. I split my sparge water amount in two and rinse the grains twice. Hope that makes sense.

+1..That's how I do it and I get nice efficiency..

 

[Denny]

Unless there isn't enough room in your mash tun to hold all the sparge water at once, go with a single sparge addition. There's little to no gain to doing it in 2 steps. Remember, Beersmith is a tool to help you brew the way you want to brew. It is not instructions on how to brew. I generally mash with 1.5-2 qt./lb. and sparge with enough to get my total boil volume. Going wiht a mash thinner than 1.25 has actually raised my efficiency a bit.

 

[corwin3083]

Remember, Beersmith is a tool to help you brew the way you want to brew.

I know. Was just wondering if there was some advantage to it that I was unaware of. Apparently not, so I'll just do one sparge.

 

[Hammy71]

Unless there isn't enough room in your mash tun to hold all the sparge water at once, go with a single sparge addition. There's little to no gain to doing it in 2 steps. Remember, Beersmith is a tool to help you brew the way you want to brew. It is not instructions on how to brew. I generally mash with 1.5-2 qt./lb. and sparge with enough to get my total boil volume. Going wiht a mash thinner than 1.25 has actually raised my efficiency a bit.

Everyone's system is different I guess. I notice a huge reduction in efficiency when I only do one sparge addition. But whatever works for each of us, is the way to go!

 

[Denny]

Everyone's system is different I guess. I notice a huge reduction in efficiency when I only do one sparge addition. But whatever works for each of us, is the way to go!

I've heard some people say that and I just don't understand why. How big is your mash tun? What kind of efficiency do you normally get and how much difference does the second sparge addition make?

 

[Hammy71]

To be honest, I haven't tried to do a single sparge on the new rig. Figured if it wasn't broke, why mess with it. When I was using a cooler, it just sucked. I don't have my notes in front of me, but it just sucked. Guess, I'll just have to break down and try it. Reading this thread, I never realized so many people didn't do multiple sparges.....I though we all DID. LOL!

 

[Denny]

To be honest, I haven't tried to do a single sparge on the new rig. Figured if it wasn't broke, why mess with it. When I was using a cooler, it just sucked. I don't have my notes in front of me, but it just sucked. Guess, I'll just have to break down and try it. Reading this thread, I never realized so many people didn't do multiple sparges.....I though we all DID. LOL!

Well, I average 83-85% doing only one sparge, so it certainly is possible. I've gotta say that if you get a big increase by doing 2, you might want to look at your system and procedures to try to find out why.

 

[norsk]

Well, I average 83-85% doing only one sparge, so it certainly is possible. I've gotta say that if you get a big increase by doing 2, you might want to look at your system and procedures to try to find out why.

I know it's a pain in the ass, but it would probably be a good idea if you'd edit some of your earlier instructions/articles on batch sparging. When I'm instructing friends how to do a single sparge, they inevitably come back with "Yea, but Denny says in (Cheap 'n' Easy Batch Sparge Brewing) to do two sparges..." It would make my life easier as the chance of someone listening to what I have to say vs what you have said are slim to none.... I try to tell them that you changed your technique, but many people view what you have written as gospel (for good reason)....

 

[Denny]

I know it's a pain in the ass, but it would probably be a good idea if you'd edit some of your earlier instructions/articles on batch sparging. When I'm instructing friends how to do a single sparge, they inevitably come back with "Yea, but Denny says in (Cheap 'n' Easy Batch Sparge Brewing) to do two sparges..." It would make my life easier as the chance of someone listening to what I have to say vs what you have said are slim to none.... I try to tell them that you changed your technique, but many people view what you have written as gospel (for good reason)....

I totally agree I need to do some revision on that, but I don't see anywhere I told people to do 2 sparges. If you (or anyone) could point that out, I'll get it taken care of ASAP! Thanks!

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

I totally agree I need to do some revision on that, but I don't see anywhere I told people to do 2 sparges. If you (or anyone) could point that out, I'll get it taken care of ASAP! Thanks!

I think the confusion is in the formula section where you give the following example:

Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

Since you are adding water twice after mashing, it sounds like a double batch sparge rather than a single sparge. The first time I read it I did not do so carefully and thought you were saying sparge twice.

 

[tre9er]

I think the confusion is in the formula section where you give the following example:

Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

Since you are adding water twice after mashing, it sounds like a double batch sparge rather than a single sparge. The first time I read it I did not do so carefully and thought you were saying sparge twice.

Which would be a mashout.

I'm with Denny. I do a single sparge, usually strike and sparge with the same volume to make it easy to remember (so I adjust my mash thickness to get to that point). My efficiency is pegged at 80-81% every time.

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

Which would be a mashout.

I'm with Denny. I do a single sparge, usually strike and sparge with the same volume to make it easy to remember (so I adjust my mash thickness to get to that point). My efficiency is pegged at 80-81% every time.

I wasn't having any problems or disagreements with Denny. I was merely trying to be helpful and point out where I thought the confusion was about him saying to batch sparge out. Also, a mash out usually involves raising the temperature of the mash. Denny's article talks about replacing the water lost to absorption, not raising the temperature of the mash.

 

[tre9er]

I wasn't having any problems or disagreements with Denny. I was merely trying to be helpful and point out where I thought the confusion was about him saying to batch sparge out. Also, a mash out usually involves raising the temperature of the mash. Denny's article talks about replacing the water lost to absorption, not raising the temperature of the mash.

I know you weren't. I was clarifying the process he described involved a mashout (of course I was assuming the addition was boiling since it didn't specify), so that those less familiar with the term would be educated. Merely supplemental info. Granted, many of us don't do a mashout as there isn't much conversion taking place in the short time it takes to sparge, especially if you have the wort heating as you go.

 

[pjj2ba]

I drain, and then do two equal sparges. After the first sparge I put the wort I've already collected on to boil and then collect the last sparge into a bucket. This gets me to a boil a little faster. I do have a pump so doing an additional vorlauf is very easy and doesn't take much time. Actually, neither does the draining as I pump it out. Ultimately I find this convenient, and that is my reason for doing it.

 

[Denny]

I wasn't having any problems or disagreements with Denny. I was merely trying to be helpful and point out where I thought the confusion was about him saying to batch sparge out. Also, a mash out usually involves raising the temperature of the mash. Denny's article talks about replacing the water lost to absorption, not raising the temperature of the mash.

Actually, it's not strictly water lost to absorption. It's for runoff equalization, which can be for several reasons, absorption being only one. But I really appreciate your comments. They let me know where I wasn't clear enough and where I need to do some work.

 

[BigRedHopHead]

I single sparge, and like Denny use a thinner mash (1.75 - 2.0qt/lb). I am usually around 82-84% efficiency. No mashout. Just try and keep my runoff volumes within a gallon of each other.

 

[maida7]

I also do a single sparge. I do the single to save time and simplify my brew day. I've done the double and the increase in efficiency was very minor.

But I've been mashing at 1.25 - 1.33 qts per lb. I think I will try a thinner mash and see how that goes.

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

Actually, it's not strictly water lost to absorption. It's for runoff equalization, which can be for several reasons, absorption being only one. But I really appreciate your comments. They let me know where I wasn't clear enough and where I need to do some work.

I appreciate the clarification. I was not very precise in my representation of what you were describing. Frankly, I need to do so more research so I have an understanding of why the best efficiency is achieved by having the first runnings and a single sparge each equal 1/2 of the pre-boil volume (which is not to say that I don't understand why you want to end up with your desired pre-boil volume, just why you have to get there in two equal runnings to maximize efficiency.)

 

[Denny]

I appreciate the clarification. I was not very precise in my representation of what you were describing. Frankly, I need to do so more research so I have an understanding of why the best efficiency is achieved by having the first runnings and a single sparge each equal 1/2 of the pre-boil volume (which is not to say that I don't understand why you want to end up with your desired pre-boil volume, just why you have to get there in two equal runnings to maximize efficiency.)

Here's the math that explains it...

http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html

FWIW, I've found that even a 70/30 split makes very little difference in efficiency. As long as my mash and sparge runoff are within a gal. or so of each other, it's good enough.

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

Here's the math that explains it...

http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html

FWIW, I've found that even a 70/30 split makes very little difference in efficiency. As long as my mash and sparge runoff are within a gal. or so of each other, it's good enough.

But nobody told me there would be math!

Thanks. I had already skimmed through Ken Schwartz' article before, but I am too lazy to actually do the math myself. I will be brewing in the next day or so and will try to equalize the runnings and see what I get.

 

[SpeedYellow]

The only reason Beersmith tells you to do 2 batch sparges is because you told it you wanted 2 sparges! You must have like 70% for "set batch sparge to this % of mash tun." If I change that to 100% then it tells me to do 1 sparge.

Somebody (braukaiser) experimented and found a few points of efficiency for two sparges. Makes sense to me. So you have to decide if the extra effort is worth a few points.