Barrel-aged lambic style....thoughts?

[Gnomebrewer]

A nearby cooperage has some 300L (about 80 gallon) ex-pinot barrels coming in soon at a really good price (cheaper per unit of storage capacity than any other fermenter I can buy). I'm thinking about grabbing one for a lambic style beer 'perpetual blending' system (pseudo solera). I don't have much experience with sours yet (a couple of kettle sours and a recently brewed Flanders Red) but have recently discovered how much I like drinking them! This is my idea for a process - does it sound sensible? Any thoughts?

Recipe:
Grains: 60% Pils malt, 30% Wheat malt (I have a sack of it) and 10% Flaked wheat - 1.051OG. Mash for 60 minutes at 68C/154F.
Hops: 1g/L of low alpha continental hops (currently I can get Styrian Goldings at 1.8%AA) for 60 minutes. I don't have and can't get aged hops. I'm thinking large doses of aged hops are more needed for wild/spontaneous ferments where a lack of Saccharomyces and bad bacteria are concerns?
Yeast/Bacteria: Whatever I have.....currently Wyeast Roeselare blend, Whitelabs Flemish Ale Blend, Gigayeast Sweet Flemish Brett, Yeast Bay Amalgamation and Yeast Bay Beersel. Plus some Sacch yeast to help start things (probably a Belgian Ale yeast) and whatever bottle dregs I end up with (starting with some oude gueuze dregs) grown into starters.
Process:
Ferment in the barrel (how full should it be?). I can fill the barrel in a long brew day, with four batches on my system. I'm thinking a starter of Belgian Ale yeast suitable for a 100L batch, plus slurry of batches with all the other yeasts and blends? Ferment some in PET carboys to top-up the barrel after primary fermentation (say, four weeks). Taste periodically by sampling through a hole in the head (sealed with SS nail) - if it's not souring enough, add some maltodextrin. Remove a quarter to a third each year for bottling/fruiting etc. and replace with (wort or beer? - beer might prevent trub build up?). Run for about four years before emptying and cleaning out.

 

[mashpaddled]

In my experience you will get closer to lambic flavor using just pils and unmalted wheat but I have made sour beers with malted wheat and like them as well. You are fine to pick a couple sour blends plus dregs but you need to consider those packs are made for five gallon batches and you are making sixteen times that volume so you need to buy appropriately. At a minimum you need to pitch enough sacc to effectively ferment out the wort without oxidative flaws (or worse, mold growth).

As far as the fermentation and aging process there are a lot of ways you can do this and it is up to your goals which direction you take. Keeping all the fermentation within the barrel will give you more of a unique profile of the microenvironment of the barrel and its occupants but you will deal with a lot of trub and blowoff. Fermenting wort outside of the barrel and adding it when you pull portions will reduce the amount of trub and make it easier to keep the barrel full but may not give you as much of a unique or complex beer. The biggest concern is reducing oxygen exposure while aging as well as during racking in and out of the barrel. Your primary focus IMO is to build practices that best protect the beer from oxidation.

 

[mashpaddled]

duplicate post

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In my experience you will get closer to lambic flavor using just pils and unmalted wheat but I have made sour beers with malted wheat and like them as well.

I have a sack of malted wheat already, but would need to buy un-malted/flaked. Is the difference noticeable? If it is, I'll buy flaked wheat.

You are fine to pick a couple sour blends plus dregs but you need to consider those packs are made for five gallon batches and you are making sixteen times that volume so you need to buy appropriately. At a minimum you need to pitch enough sacc to effectively ferment out the wort without oxidative flaws (or worse, mold growth).

I wasn't very clear there. I'd be using the 'yeast' cakes of the blends (Roeselare, Flanders Ale and Sweet Cherry Brett) from existing Flanders Red batches (12L/3g of each - use 1/4 for a new batch of Flanders red and the rest into the lambic). The other Brett Blends would have decent starters. I'm also thinking a starter of sacch suitable for a 100L/27 gallon batch on top of the cakes. Any bottle dregs would be stepped up to about 1L starters.

As far as the fermentation and aging process there are a lot of ways you can do this and it is up to your goals which direction you take. Keeping all the fermentation within the barrel will give you more of a unique profile of the microenvironment of the barrel and its occupants but you will deal with a lot of trub and blowoff. Fermenting wort outside of the barrel and adding it when you pull portions will reduce the amount of trub and make it easier to keep the barrel full but may not give you as much of a unique or complex beer. The biggest concern is reducing oxygen exposure while aging as well as during racking in and out of the barrel. Your primary focus IMO is to build practices that best protect the beer from oxidation.

Thanks for the feedback. Fermenting separately and transferring to the barrel isn't an option (I don't have the capacity to ferment 300L without giving all of my 'clean' fermenters to sours). So the question is whether fermenting in the barrel is feasible. Is the trub an issue? I know Brett takes care of some yeast autolysis, but is that that amount over four years too much? Is there a way around it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

The other Brett Blends would have decent starters. I'm also thinking a starter of sacch suitable for a 100L/27 gallon batch on top of the cakes. Any bottle dregs would be stepped up to about 1L starters.

In my opinion, making Brett/dregs starters is a complete waste of time and resources in this situation, and potentially detrimental.

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To hit reasonable Sacc cell counts, you could maybe just make a ~20L batch several days before filling the barrel, and use that whole thing as the "starter". I'd suggest Wyeast Belgian Lambic Blend for this, but Roeselare/Flemish blends are ok.

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Fermenting in the barrel is perfectly fine. Use a blow-off tube. Trub won't hurt it whatsoever, even over the course of years.
Though, I would still try to minimize the amount of trub/break material going in, within reason. This will help maximize esters.

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At 1g/L hopping rate, it'll have no problem souring, especially with dregs. No worries there. You could even increase hops to 2-3g/L. Delaying souring for a few weeks to months is a good thing because acidity generally suppresses yeast expression.

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I'm not sure why you plan to empty it after 4 years unless you want to radically change the malt or just use a newer barrel/ different microbes.

When topping up after pulling a portion, I'd add beer rather than wort. This avoids dealing with blow-off, guarantees adequate Sacc counts, and increases the Sacc esters because of lower acidity. Reducing yeast cake accumulation is a bonus.

Hope this helps

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Excellent feedback thankyou @RPh_Guy
That gives me confidence to go ahead. I will say I'm a bit nervous though!

Emptying after four or so years was just thinking about the trub. I guess I'll just make a decision closer to the time.

Re. Brett and dreg starters - I don't need much encouragement to be lazy. No starters it is!

The sacch yeast will probably be whatever I have available at the time from a recently fermented batch. That may be WY3724 (Belgian Saison). Would that be OK? Is the Saisoniness likely to come through (I wouldn't want it to)? Otherwise I should have a cake of WLP570 (Belgian Golden Ale). Or WLP051 (Cali Ale V). Or a blend?

So maybe 2g/L of hops? That's up around 10IBU.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'm starting a sour solera in a 25gal barrel, and have considered the same issues.

Lambic mash: if you're lookign for a more traditional turbid mash, check out the alternatives to the traditional method here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Turbid_Mash#Alternative_methods_to_yield_starchy_wort

Primary fermenting in the barrel shouldn't be an issue. Main thing would be over time maybe get your racking cane all the way down to purposely remove trub build up. This shouldn't be an issue for a few years. I typically brew enough to fill the barrel +10%. Fill the barrel to about 90%, and ferment a portion in a carboy alongside - use this to top off once primary fermentation is done and you don't have to worry about blow off loss. The difference you'll see in the 10% vs the remainder will be unnoticeable.

Be prepared to abort altogether if, down the road, the beer turns into something you're not happy with, or if it picks up some off flavors (oxidation, acetic, etc.).

 

[RPh_Guy]

That may be WY3724 (Belgian Saison). Would that be OK?

I haven't personally made a funky/sour Saison (yet), so I can't really comment on how it changes over time.
I generally don't like saisons because the high peppery phenol offends my palate ... However the commercial sour saisons I've had are actually very good, even though the phenol is still present at some level.
If you find it to be good in a clean beer, I'm sure you'd like it as a primary yeast for a mixed sour.

Sacc with lots of character is desirable.

So maybe 2g/L of hops? That's up around 10IBU.

All right, I screwed up the metric conversions and now I feel like a dope. I forgot to divide by 5 since I think in terms of 5 gallons...
I generally recommend 0.3-0.6g/L (0.2-0.4oz / 5 gal) for pronounced sourness in 6-12 months. You can go higher if you have aggressive dregs, or if you don't want it quite so sour, or if you plan to let it age for several years with occasional feeding, perhaps up to 1-1.2g/L would be appropriate.
Sorry about that.

Actually, many Belgian sours clock in around 30-40 measured IBU (e.g. Tilquin Oude Gueuze). A lot of that is oxidized beta acids from aged hops. That traditional bitterness is too much for my taste; I prefer it no more than 10-15 IBU (e.g. Duchesse de Bourgogne).

If you want to use aged hops, grab some hops now so you can age them for later. I got a pound (454g) of whole cone Czech Saaz and aged them in a paper bag in my garage.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I think I'll go with WLP570.
I don't want it too aggressively sour, so I might stick with 1g/L of hops (20g per 5 gallons).
I've already ordered some whole-cone hops that I'll put in a paper bag in my roof space - they should be good for next year.

 

[mashpaddled]

I have a sack of malted wheat already, but would need to buy un-malted/flaked. Is the difference noticeable? If it is, I'll buy flaked wheat.

It's different but malted wheat makes good sour beer. Unmalted wheat will give the beer more graininess than malted wheat which brings some malt flavor into the beer. It just depends whether that difference is important to you.

Thanks for the feedback. Fermenting separately and transferring to the barrel isn't an option (I don't have the capacity to ferment 300L without giving all of my 'clean' fermenters to sours). So the question is whether fermenting in the barrel is feasible. Is the trub an issue? I know Brett takes care of some yeast autolysis, but is that that amount over four years too much? Is there a way around it?

It is feasible but do as good of a job as you can eliminating air exposure to the beer in the barrel as you rack and refill. Use siphons or pumps when you can rather than dumping in wort through a funnel. Trub is an issue not because it creates bad flavors but because it builds up and displaces beer you can get back out of the barrel. I am not sure what the ratio would be but after two years of back to back fermentations in a better bottle with 50% of the beer removed in the first year and replaced with fresh wort, I would have about two to three inches of trub settled in the bottom of the fermenter. Not a ridiculous amount but enough that I felt like I needed to clear it out if only to recover the headspace.