Bad brew day- rethinking hobby

[applescrap]

Sorry to hear about the bad day. For me this is kind of the essence of home brewing or at least a part i like. You have bad days, and you think about what happened, what next. All the things you are doing. You learn, water volumes, mashing with biab, your setups unique nuisances and you plan for next time. Maybe think of it as an exciting, and fun time. You are getting all this great info from incredible minds and are calculating what to do next. Draw pictures of your setup and volumes, think about boil off, absorption and kettle trub. Best of luck, hope you hang in there.

 

[dustinthompson85]

I really want to thank the community for offering advice and helping me think through this last session. Sometimes it good to know that others have gone through similar learning curves. I will re plan and re execute here soon. I will let you know if the beer fermenting now turns out ok or if it's a hot mess. Thanks again everyone!

 

[IslandLizard]

Although BeerSmith is great for recipe formulation, and when configured correctly for your equipment (profiles) may give you all you need, there are simpler online BIAB and mash calculators out there that can be used in a jiffy.

The 365 Mash/Sparge Calculator has been for many years and still is my #1 mash volume tool. It's so easy to make tweaks here and there as things may change during brew day. Things we know, but BS is totally oblivious or ignorant about. Such as boiling (flaked) corn for 20' to gelatinize it more thoroughly, then using the resulting thin polenta as strike water for the main mash. Or cereal mashing.

Same for many of us using an online yeast calculator rather than relying on BS's rudimentary approach.

 

[millatime]

Just to chime in here, I also am starting newly into AG brewing. My first brew was a "kit" from a supplier, all the milled grain, hops, and yeast.

Beersmith confused the bejesus out of me to begin with, trying to setup my equipment and recipe, water amounts etc. So what I did was lookup the kit recipe on beersmith and see what other users used for temps/water amounts. You can search a recipe and see what others used for water amounts, ferm temps, everything.

I then wrote a detailed step of my brew day before hand. This helped me a lot run down a checklist of EVERY step.

I.E.
1) clean and sanitize - get ALL equipment ready: by that I mean have all your tubes, thermometers, etc ready to rock
2) preheat X gallons/liters of strike water to 170 : 12lb of grain x 1.25 liters per lb (or whatever you may need)
3) mash at 152 for 60 mins - have timer ready
4) mash out at 170 using X more gallons of water
5) batch sparge to reach X gallons in boil pot
6) etc etc

I now have a lot of confidence going into my second brew. Hope this helps and keep brewing!

 

[kh54s10]

Just to chime in here, I also am starting newly into AG brewing. My first brew was a "kit" from a supplier, all the milled grain, hops, and yeast.

Beersmith confused the bejesus out of me to begin with, trying to setup my equipment and recipe, water amounts etc. So what I did was lookup the kit recipe on beersmith and see what other users used for temps/water amounts. You can search a recipe and see what others used for water amounts, ferm temps, everything.

I then wrote a detailed step of my brew day before hand. This helped me a lot run down a checklist of EVERY step.

I.E.
1) clean and sanitize - get ALL equipment ready: by that I mean have all your tubes, thermometers, etc ready to rock
2) preheat X gallons/liters of strike water to 170 : 12lb of grain x 1.25 liters per lb (or whatever you may need)
3) mash at 152 for 60 mins - have timer ready
4) mash out at 170 using X more gallons of water
5) batch sparge to reach X gallons in boil pot
6) etc etc

I now have a lot of confidence going into my second brew. Hope this helps and keep brewing!

This is a great start but you will need to refine the process.

1) is good for all brewing.
2) Strike water temperature will change based on the amount of grain and the temperature of the grain when doughing in.
3) mash temperature can be adjusted to change the mouthfeel of the beer. Lower makes a more fermentable wort and a drier beer. Higher give a maltier beer.
4) If you are doing Batch sparge or BIAB you can skip this step. It is to stop enzymatic action and lock in a profile when doing an hour long fly sparge.
6) every combination of pot and heat source will create a different boil off rate. You will have to refine your volume until you collect the proper amount into the fermenter consistently.

Keep researching, learning, enjoying. Brew on.

 

[millatime]

Thanks @kh54s10 It was more of a overall general list so he can lay out his steps, this will obviously be different for everyone

 

[ba-brewer]

@dustinthompson85, glad to hear you are going to give it another try good luck with your next batch.

 

[Anyhowe]

This is a great start but you will need to refine the process.

Nope.

This is exactly how they get confused, they misinterpret and they have problems. Brew on.

 

[Anyhowe]

Just to chime in here, I also am starting newly into AG brewing. My first brew was a "kit" from a supplier, all the milled grain, hops, and yeast.

Beersmith confused the bejesus out of me to begin with, trying to setup my equipment and recipe, water amounts etc. So what I did was lookup the kit recipe on beersmith and see what other users used for temps/water amounts. You can search a recipe and see what others used for water amounts, ferm temps, everything.

I then wrote a detailed step of my brew day before hand. This helped me a lot run down a checklist of EVERY step.

I.E.
1) clean and sanitize - get ALL equipment ready: by that I mean have all your tubes, thermometers, etc ready to rock
2) preheat X gallons/liters of strike water to 170 : 12lb of grain x 1.25 liters per lb (or whatever you may need)
3) mash at 152 for 60 mins - have timer ready
4) mash out at 170 using X more gallons of water
5) batch sparge to reach X gallons in boil pot
6) etc etc

I now have a lot of confidence going into my second brew. Hope this helps and keep brewing!

Excellent direction and advice. Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

But... with much higher boil off his post boil gravity would be proportionally much higher at the same time. That doesn't seem the case. Or is it?

I have the feeling the OP dumped a lot of good wort with his trub in an effort to get less trub in the fermentor.

True, but I don't think the OP posted either post-boil volume or actual OG. So, everything was speculation based on low fermenter volume. Didn't find those when I went back and looked. If they were posted, can someone link to them, so I can slap my forehead? OP later said he left lots of "slurry" behind, and I reposted noting that that is also a big part of his "missing" volume.

Brew on

 

[nogoer]

He never posted what the recipe SG was supposed to be either. 1080 sounds high even for this beer clone and he could have added water in the fermenter to make up for some of the extra boil off.

He also didnt mention anything about the grind. You could have started off on the wrong foot with a bad grind that was incapable of getting the gravity intended. I had a lot of efficiency issues due to weak grinds that led to low gravity problems. First i started using a few lbs of extra grain to help meet gravity, then moved on to double grinds once i got better at all the aspects and then smartened up and spent time making sure my mill was set correctly. For a long time it astounded me how people were getting 80%+ efficiency, but now i know. If your brew shop is doing the grinding that could also be an issue. Not all shops properly setup thier grinders or care to make sure the grist is fully ground. When i got my own mill my efficiency got better right away.

 

[doug293cz]

He never posted what the recipe SG was supposed to be either. 1080 sounds high even for this beer clone and he could have added water in the fermenter to make up for some of the extra boil off.

He also didnt mention anything about the grind. You could have started off on the wrong foot with a bad grind that was incapable of getting the gravity intended. I had a lot of efficiency issues due to weak grinds that led to low gravity problems. First i started using a few lbs of extra grain to help meet gravity, then moved on to double grinds once i got better at all the aspects and then smartened up and spent time making sure my mill was set correctly. For a long time it astounded me how people were getting 80%+ efficiency, but now i know. If your brew shop is doing the grinding that could also be an issue. Not all shops properly setup thier grinders or care to make sure the grist is fully ground. When i got my own mill my efficiency got better right away.

OP stated that grain bill was 17 lbs, strike water was 7.75 gal, and initial runnings SG (SG of wort at end of mash, prior to any sparge) was 1.063. These are the only three values you need to calculate conversion efficiency (mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency.) And, the maximum possible initial runnings SG (at 100% conversion efficiency) can be estimated from just the grain bill weight and strike water volume. OP's max possible initial runnings SG is about 1.069, and OP's value of 1.063 represents a conversion efficiency of about 90 - 91%. OP could very likely improve this conversion efficiency by going to a finer crush, and/or a longer mash.

However, OP's conversion efficiency has nothing to do with his low fermenter volume. OP's lauter efficiency was pretty good for BIAB, and was also not a contributor to the low fermenter volume. 7.0 gal (0.5 gal sparge added to his 6.5 gal initial runnings) pre-boil volume should be more than enough to net 5 gal to the fermenter. The low fermenter volume is entirely due to maybe some excessive boil off (but without a post-boil volume measurement, we cannot know this) and his admitted leaving behind a significant volume of wort in the BK.

Let's say OP's pre-boil SG was 1.062 after sparge (remember sparging reduces the pre-boil SG from the initial runnings SG), and if boil off was 1.5 gal, then the OG would have been 62 * 7.0 / 5.5 = 79 pts/gal or 1.079 vs. the recipe OG of 1.086. A higher boil off would have resulted in a higher OG.

Brew on

 

[ba-brewer]

I believe he had 6.5gal at the beginning of the boil.

After I mashed I took a reading Andrew was at 1.063 I (after the temp adjustments in beer smith). I had right about 6.5 gals to boil for 90 mins. I tired to filter it through a fine strainer when transferring into the fermenter and it plugged up on my because of the sludge. (It was a dogfishhead 90 min clone so a lot of hops). Took a reading when putting it in the fermenter and got 1.080 (it was kind of sludgy, so not sure if it was accurate or not or of that matters).

Recipe Grains:
16 lbs of 2 row
1 lb. Of munich

I mashed (biab) with 7.75 gals on water and took about .5 gals and tried to "rinse" my grain bag since my first reading was below target (target was 1.076 and I landed at 1.063) the rinsing didnt appear to help.

Hops:
3.5 oz. Of hops divided up and added every 5 mins to the 90 min boil.

 

[Bobby_M]

Out of curiosity... I noticed someone made the comment to stop straining the wort.
Can you explain why? I have always strained and I haven't noticed any negative effects from it..

I don't use a funnel with a tiny screen, but instead I have a ridiculously oversized hop spyder that I double as a strainer... You have to stir a bit but I don't get any losses of wort volume and a much cleaner solution for primary fermentation.

As I said in another post, There are so many more details to worry about before separation of trub. I didn't say there was never a benefit involved at some point. Pouring through a strainer and having to keep cleaning the strainer over and over is another contamination risk.

 

[Blazinlow86]

dont give it up now. your already making all grain beer. as others have said you need to get as accurate a boil off rate and ideally be able to adjust your burner to the same setting each time. I recommend not worrying too much about trub/hops getting into the fermentor. given the choice to have or not have i think most would choose no trub/hops in the fermentor but thats another technique in itself that wont make a big differance at this point. remember that consistency is king. next time will be better. cheers

 

[kh54s10]

This is a great start but you will need to refine the process.

1) is good for all brewing.
2) Strike water temperature will change based on the amount of grain and the temperature of the grain when doughing in.
3) mash temperature can be adjusted to change the mouthfeel of the beer. Lower makes a more fermentable wort and a drier beer. Higher give a maltier beer.
4) If you are doing Batch sparge or BIAB you can skip this step. It is to stop enzymatic action and lock in a profile when doing an hour long fly sparge.
6) every combination of pot and heat source will create a different boil off rate. You will have to refine your volume until you collect the proper amount into the fermenter consistently.

Keep researching, learning, enjoying. Brew on.

Nope.

This is exactly how they get confused, they misinterpret and they have problems. Brew on.

What are you saying nope to?

I said it was a good start. Are you saying nope to that? I said he would have to refine the process. Are you saying nope to that.
I pointed out that strike temperature is not a set degree in all cases. Are you saying nope to that?
I pointed out that varying mash temperature in the future will change the character of the beer. Are you saying nope to that?
I pointed out that you don't need a mashout with batch sparging or biab. Are you saying nope to that?
I pointed out that his equipment will have a different boil off rate than a recipe he finds online. Are you saying nope to that?

Taking a recipe that you find online and brewing it without taking your processes into consideration will not produce the same beer.
If you don't refine your processes overtime you will have the same problems forever. As an example, if you never determine your boil off rate you will have a hard time collecting the proper amount of preboil wort.

 

[Anyhowe]

This is a great start but you will need to refine the process.

What are saying nope to?

I am saying nope to the ‘need’ to do all that crap. He enjoyed his first beer. He has a stated “confidence”. The nuances of a few degrees different in strike temp and the subtleties of a few degrees of mash temp in the finished product are real, but have nothing to do with making very good and very drinkable beer. This is a beginner thread.

I read about way to many beginner problems, frustrations and questions of concern over things that will have little to no effect on the quality of the final product because they are trying to do too much.

Right now his time would be better spent having fun learning about the flavors of different roasted malts and the differences in hop flavors, bitterness and aromas.

Hail to the smiles and success of new brewers. Welcome to the asylum.

 

[kh54s10]

I am saying nope to the ‘need’ to do all that crap. He enjoyed his first beer. He has a stated “confidence”. The nuances of a few degrees different in strike temp and the subtleties of a few degrees of mash temp in the finished product are real, but have nothing to do with making very good and very drinkable beer. This is a beginner thread.

I read about way to many beginner problems, frustrations and questions of concern over things that will have little to no effect on the quality of the final product because they are trying to do too much.

Right now his time would be better spent having fun learning about the flavors of different roasted malts and the differences in hop flavors, bitterness and aromas.

Hail to the smiles and success of new brewers. Welcome to the asylum.

That is why I said it is a great start.

But if the poster sticks to that schedule without learning the nuances he will not progress. That is all I was attempting to get across.

I have read where beginners have had problems where they found a recipe and tried to follow it without learning what was entailed. To just take a recipe you find online and try to reproduce it without taking into account your equipment and processes might turn out something not even good.

I agree that mash temperature is not a critical thing to worry about for a beginner. But boil off rate is a necessary thing to consider.

I was not implying that all those steps need to be done right away, rather that you should learn and progress even as a beginner.

 

[Metalchef1]

Is there a need to "progress"? Unless he is specifically brewing to gold at the gabf... Should be just fine screwing around and enjoying the results...
"Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew."

 

[Metalchef1]

Listen to interviews and read stuff from Peter Bouckaert.... He basically says he has an idea but basically just puts stuff together and makes it into beer.
If someone makes a bad batch, for the most part, they will blend it and use it in other ways...

 

[kh54s10]

Is there a need to "progress"? Unless he is specifically brewing to gold at the gabf... Should be just fine screwing around and enjoying the results...
"Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew."

I would say yes there is a need to progress. I was responding to someone who took things from other people to come up with a way to brew without regard to the differences in equipment and other procedures. It is true there is a degree of how much progress is necessary. Or someone can screw around and maybe not enjoy the results. Or screw around, make something good and have no clue on how to do it again.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I am saying nope to the ‘need’ to do all that crap. He enjoyed his first beer. He has a stated “confidence”. The nuances of a few degrees different in strike temp and the subtleties of a few degrees of mash temp in the finished product are real, but have nothing to do with making very good and very drinkable beer. This is a beginner thread.

I read about way to many beginner problems, frustrations and questions of concern over things that will have little to no effect on the quality of the final product because they are trying to do too much.

Right now his time would be better spent having fun learning about the flavors of different roasted malts and the differences in hop flavors, bitterness and aromas.

Hail to the smiles and success of new brewers. Welcome to the asylum.

I would have to disagree with your stance. I think as a new brewer he is better concentrating on the process before worrying about learning about the ingredients. Imho new brewers should start with some proven recipes and once they can make those successfully they can start making there own recipes. Consistency is king. Cheers

 

[dustinthompson85]

The air lock is still bubbling on this one, three weeks later. Opened up the fridge to take a look at heard it bubble. 30 seconds later I heard it again. Was surprised since it's been a while, as mentioned three weeks.

 

[kh54s10]

The air lock is still bubbling on this one, three weeks later. Opened up the fridge to take a look at heard it bubble. 30 seconds later I heard it again. Was surprised since it's been a while, as mentioned three weeks.

Changes in temperature or even atmospheric pressure will cause air to pass through an airlock. That doesn't mean that any fermentation is still occurring. Take a gravity reading. The the day after tomorrow take another one. If they are the same you can bottle the beer. I am sure it is done by now.

 

[doug293cz]

^^ This ^^

Brew on

 

[dustinthompson85]

I took a reading and it was lower than the estimate.

 

[doug293cz]

Don't use the estimated FG to determine if fermentation is complete. It is only an estimate, and lots of things can cause the actual FG to be different from the estimated FG. Take actual SG readings at least two days apart, and if the SG is the same for both readings, then fermentation is complete.

Brew on

 

[eetu]

I would have to disagree with your stance. I think as a new brewer he is better concentrating on the process before worrying about learning about the ingredients. Imho new brewers should start with some proven recipes and once they can make those successfully they can start making there own recipes. Consistency is king. Cheers

I think this really depends on your take in the hobby. I have about 35 brews on my belt, which of 30 are made with all grain or partial mash technique, and all of them are my own recipes. I don't find enjoyment in just following guides and other's recipes. It's kinda like cooking staring at a cook book. Yes, the end result may be good but can you actually advertise it as something YOU made and succeeded. That is the cornerstone of this hobby to me, expressing myself, learning from mistakes and succeeding. It is a fantastic feeling to pour that first sample from your latest brew, take a sip, and you think this is the perfect thing.

But that's me. This hobby took me with both hands and pulled under. I have read multiple books, searched online and joined conversation, found totally new angles about beer itself, and had fun.

Don't let anyone tell you how you should do your hobby. Ask for advice and guidance, if needed, but the only thing that matters is if you are enjoying yourself. It's a hobby.

 

[kh54s10]

I think this really depends on your take in the hobby. I have about 35 brews on my belt, which of 30 are made with all grain all partial mash technique, and all of them are my own recipes. I don't find enjoyment in just following guides and other's recipes. It's kinda like cooking staring at a cook book. Yes, the end result may be good but can you actually advertise it as something YOU made and succeeded. That is the cornerstone of this hobby to me, expressing myself, learning from mistakes and succeeding. It is a fantastic feeling to pour that first sample from your latest brew, take a sip, and you think this is the perfect thing.

But that's me. This hobby took me with both hands and pulled under. I have read multiple books, searched online and joined conversation, found totally new angles about beer itself, and had fun.

Don't let anyone tell you how you should do your hobby. Ask for advice and guidance, if needed, but the only thing that matters is if you are enjoying yourself. It's a hobby.

The point of suggestion of someone concentrating on the process of brewing is sound. There are so many threads where people ask why my recipe did not come out as planned. Then it is asked how they brewed the beer. The recent one that I saw was: "I took this recipe. It was for an all grain beer is it going to be ok?" That person took 16 pounds of grain, put it in a pot and boiled it along with 4 or so ounces of hops for an hour. The person ended up with something that was 1.023 OG!!!! This, because it was supposed to be a clone of a beer that he liked.

 

[Jaybird]

Wow, I like reading and researching brewing! But what a brew day. I think I ended up with like 2 gallons after 6 hours of work. How does this happen? I have the correct pre boil volume according to beer Smith. Super slurry from all the hops but that's ok, just disappointed in the yield. Gravity readings were right, it if you think about the volume something is off... just demotivated... maybe I need to back up to extract. Picture is of a 6.5 gallon fermenter. Finished about an hour ago. View attachment 585098

Man if Volume is all your missing.. That's a super easy fix right there!

You have some great advise in this thread. Step away form the ledge! LOL

Good luck! If I can help feel free to reach out.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Blazinlow86]

The point of suggestion of someone concentrating on the process of brewing is sound. There are so many threads where people ask why my recipe did not come out as planned. Then it is asked how they brewed the beer. The recent one that I saw was: "I took this recipe. It was for an all grain beer is it going to be ok?" That person took 16 pounds of grain, put it in a pot and boiled it along with 4 or so ounces of hops for an hour. The person ended up with something that was 1.023 OG!!!! This, because it was supposed to be a clone of a beer that he liked.

Exactly my point. If you know how to cook you can follow a recipe and end up with a great meal. If you know how to pick ingredients for a recipe but don't know how to cook you'll very possible end up with a bad meal. I'm not saying to never design your own recipe just you need to learn how to MAKE beer in order to be able to make beer. Cheers

 

[amber-ale]

If you are new to all grain brewing than why don't you keep it simple (KISS)

do smaller batches. 2.5 gallon batches are a LOT easier to handle and don't hurt so much if you make a mistake

also, why not keep things simple.. people have been brewing beer since the stone age.. start small and simple from good published recipes

I have been brewing all grain BIAB for 6 years, don't use any software, always (ok, almost always) have great batches.

Don't give up, you just tried a double back flip on a trapize before learning to summersault on the ground.

 

[dustinthompson85]

I tried one of these two weeks after bottling. No carb. I then left them in the back room for about 2 months and tried another one. It was carb'd. Wasn't bad and if more carb'd it wont he a total waste! Reenergized!!!

 

[Blazinlow86]

I tried one of these two weeks after bottling. No carb. I then left them in the back room for about 2 months and tried another one. It was carb'd. Wasn't bad and if more carb'd it wont he a total waste! Reenergized!!!

And the next batch will be even better. Keep at it. Cheers