Avoiding a Smokey Aftertaste

[Booyah!]

This is my second thread since joining. Again, I tried to find my answer before asking, but I couldn't. In searching for "smokey taste", I found a lot by brewers who were trying to get it but nothing about avoiding it.

I'm on my 4th brew. The first was pretty good, and i got some nice compliments. The second had a STRONG overpowering smokey taste, especially the aftertaste. Now here's the interesting thing. My third had a slightly less smokey taste in the first set of ~6 bottles I chilled, but the ones that sat at room temp a week or two longer didn't.

I know I haven't given a lot of specific information, but is there something to the time from bottling to chilling here? Would you suspect this is due to chilling too soon? These are double IPA kits I've bought on Amazon, and they've been different brews. I was afraid I botched #2 somehow, but the way #3 came around, maybe not.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[kh54s10]

Never heard of smokey unless using smoked malts. But in answer to your bottle timing, you might get carbonation in 2 weeks but 3 weeks is pretty standard practice. 3 weeks at room temperature and at least over night for cooling. Some say to cool for a week. I only do that when I don't drink them the next evening. I always say that most of my beers had carbonation at 2 weeks but ALL of them tasted better at 3 weeks or longer. With IPAs shorter is better so they may be right at 2 -3 weeks.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Sounds like scorching to me. How are you heating your kettle?

 

[isomerization]

Infection would be my guess especially with the off-flavor increasing over time in batch #3, see guaiacol.

 

[Booyah!]

Sounds like scorching to me. How are you heating your kettle?

I just use our gas stove to heat.

Infection would be my guess especially with the off-flavor increasing over time in batch #3, see guaiacol.

As I said above, I use our gas stove to heat. After reviewing your linked site, specifically the section on sparging, maybe you and Jayjay were onto it. Maybe I've not paid close enough attention to the top end of my boiling temps. It says to keep the temp below 168f, so maybe I've gone above that in the past. This is definitely something I'll pay more attention to next time.

 

[isomerization]

I just use our gas stove to heat.


As I said above, I use our gas stove to heat. After reviewing your linked site, specifically the section on sparging, maybe you and Jayjay were onto it. Maybe I've not paid close enough attention to the top end of my boiling temps. It says to keep the temp below 168f, so maybe I've gone above that in the past. This is definitely something I'll pay more attention to next time.

I said infection, so I would look at your equipment and sanitation routine. Could also involve your water. I don’t think sparge temp is an issue and you aren’t going to get tannins unless your water pH is high.

 

[kh54s10]

Are these extract kits? If you have liquid extract you need to take the pot off the heat and stir very well while adding it or it will sink to the bottom and scorch. Also add half at the beginning and the rest after you turn off the heat at the end.

It could be infection but smokey is something I have never heard describing infection.

 

[IslandLizard]

It says to keep the temp below 168f,

That sounds like you're using a hopped extract.

Can you point to your ingredients kit? Post recipe? Anything else you are adding to your brew?
Chlorine in your brewing water also plays havoc with beer flavor/aroma. It has to be removed before adding any brew ingredients. Use a Campden tablet in all your brewing water, including top up water.

"Smokey" can surely point to scorching.

 

[RPh_Guy]

smokey is something I have never heard describing infection.

The bacteria blend that I use for souring sometimes adds a smoky flavor when I use it at high temperature. ... For example.
Microbes can produce a vast array of flavors.

To me, smoky tastes different than burnt (scorching).

 

[kh54s10]

Are these extract kits? If you have liquid extract you need to take the pot off the heat and stir very well while adding it or it will sink to the bottom and scorch. Also add half at the beginning and the rest after you turn off the heat at the end.

 

[kh54s10]

The bacteria blend that I use for souring sometimes adds a smokey flavor when I use it at high temperature. ... For example.
Microbes can produce a vast array of flavors.

To me, smokey tastes different than burnt (scorching).

I now have to add smokey to tastes that may be produced by infection.

 

[Booyah!]

I said infection, so I would look at your equipment and sanitation routine. Could also involve your water. I don’t think sparge temp is an issue and you aren’t going to get tannins unless your water pH is high.

This is what I was afraid of. It seems I've quickly gotten in the deeper end of the pool when you're talking about my pH. I Just use our tap water.

Are these extract kits? If you have liquid extract you need to take the pot off the heat and stir very well while adding it or it will sink to the bottom and scorch. Also add half at the beginning and the rest after you turn off the heat at the end.

It could be infection but smokey is something I have never heard describing infection.

We have used liquid, and job #1 in my next batch is to focus intently on the high end of my burning heat.

That sounds like you're using a hopped extract.

Can you point to your ingredients kit? Post recipe? Anything else you are adding to your brew?
Chlorine in your brewing water also plays havoc with beer flavor/aroma. It has to be removed before adding any brew ingredients. Use a Campden tablet in all your brewing water, including top up water.

"Smokey" can surely point to scorching.

You assume way too much of me, brother. At t his point in my famous home brewing legacy, I make no ingredient adjustments. I'm at the point in my brewing where I get my directions in the box and follow them to the T. I have no delusions that I could tweak anything and make it better. I most certainly would make them worse.

The bacteria blend that I use for souring sometimes adds a smoky flavor when I use it at high temperature. ... For example.
Microbes can produce a vast array of flavors.

To me, smoky tastes different than burnt (scorching).

I think this above my head again. Sorry to dumb down the conversation, and I mean that.
We've taken great care, more extensive care than I've ever taken in sterilizing the area and components. I mean, if there is any part of my process I do right, sterilizing is one of them. O scrub everything!

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm at the point in my brewing where I get my directions in the box and follow them to the T.

If brew directions were always so good we wouldn't have 8.7 million posts here.

These are double IPA kits I've bought on Amazon,

Can you post a link to the kit you used that turned out smokey?

 

[kh54s10]

2 suggestions for the next batch:

1) Use store bought spring or distilled water - no chlorine.
2) Be careful that you are not scorching the extract.

 

[Kenmoron]

It's very possible that what you are experiencing are "phenols". Phenols can be created by certain yeasts (POF+ = phenolic off flavor positive). This is a key component to some beers and an off-flavor in others. For an IPA kit, I would assume that the yeast chosen is POF- but it is possible that the strain is POF+. As mentioned above, minimizing chlorine and or chloramines in your water will also have an affect on phenolic compounds. If you are unable to use distilled water or something similar I would suggest looking up the use of campden tablets which will rid your water of chlorine/chloramines.

 

[Booyah!]

If brew directions were always so good we wouldn't have 8.7 million posts here.

Can you post a link to the kit you used that turned out smokey?

Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U83RPS4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and here's another https://www.amazon.com/Brewers-Best...it+double+ipa&qid=1580073817&s=grocery&sr=1-1

I'm sure the smokey taste is "user error", because I'm sure this mistake was on me. I don't want to disperage the seller.

2 suggestions for the next batch:

1) Use store bought spring or distilled water - no chlorine.
2) Be careful that you are not scorching the extract.

I'll use this advice on store bought distilled water next time. Infortuntely I'm reading and responding to this message mid-boil in my 5th batch that I started.

I'm paying close attention to the temperature this time. The thing is, the directions say to bring it to a rolling boil before starting the schedule of ingredients, but I'm going over the the top temp of 186 degrees F before it gets to a rolling boil. I've decided to keep my temp down, even if it isn't at a rolling boit.

 

[kh54s10]

I'll use this advice on store bought distilled water next time. Infortuntely I'm reading and responding to this message mid-boil in my 5th batch that I started.

I'm paying close attention to the temperature this time. The thing is, the directions say to bring it to a rolling boil before starting the schedule of ingredients, but I'm going over the the top temp of 186 degrees F before it gets to a rolling boil. I've decided to keep my temp down, even if it isn't at a rolling boit.

I don't know what you mean by the top temperature of 186 F. I have never seen that number in regards to anything in brewing beer. You don't need an aggressive boil. Just have the surface constantly moving. You should be fine at 186 but boiling is more common and that would be at 212F at sea level. Hop utilization estimates and the time that it takes to reach a certain IBU level is calculate with a boil. If you go lower you need to heat longer to get the same effect. Then you risk boiling off too much water increasing your OG.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't know what you mean by the top temperature of 186 F.

Transposed numbers? Before he mentioned 168F:

As I said above, I use our gas stove to heat. After reviewing your linked site, specifically the section on sparging, maybe you and Jayjay were onto it. Maybe I've not paid close enough attention to the top end of my boiling temps. It says to keep the temp below 168f, so maybe I've gone above that in the past. This is definitely something I'll pay more attention to next time.

Or the OP is confused to what temps go where.

Steeping grain is typically done at 155F, not higher.

168F would be the max temp for sparging a mash. But that applies to all grain brewing, or partial mashing/mini mashing, not extract brewing with steeping grains. Although it would apply if someone wishes to sparge steeping grains. But the pH is even more important than sheer temp. Without knowing the mineral composition of the steeping/sparging water, using distilled or RO water for sparging usually helps keeping the pH below 5.8.

Again, kit instructions aren't always the clearest.

I can recommend reading: How to Brew, 4th Ed. (Amazon Link).
Here's an older online version for quick access. A few things have changed but generally most is still the same:
http://www.howtobrew.com/

Omit anything about secondaries, don't use them!
With very, very few exceptions, well outside the scope of beginner brewing.

 

[Booyah!]

Are these extract kits? If you have liquid extract you need to take the pot off the heat and stir very well while adding it or it will sink to the bottom and scorch. Also add half at the beginning and the rest after you turn off the heat at the end.

I feel like I haven't paid enough attention to this either. Usually I am using liquid extracts that come in the kits, and I don't think I've taken this step ass seriously as I should. I do take the pot off the boil, but I don't think I'm focused on not letting the extracts settle at the bottom intentionally enough.

I don't know what you mean by the top temperature of 186 F. I have never seen that number in regards to anything in brewing beer. You don't need an aggressive boil. Just have the surface constantly moving. You should be fine at 186 but boiling is more common and that would be at 212F at sea level. Hop utilization estimates and the time that it takes to reach a certain IBU level is calculate with a boil. If you go lower you need to heat longer to get the same effect. Then you risk boiling off too much water increasing your OG.

As @IslandLizard assumed, I transposed the 168. Interesting point about the risk of boiling to low and too slow, resulting in boiling off too much water.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback! Every little thing I learn is helping me along!

 

[Soulshine2]

This is my second thread since joining. Again, I tried to find my answer before asking, but I couldn't. In searching for "smokey taste", I found a lot by brewers who were trying to get it but nothing about avoiding it.

I'm on my 4th brew. The first was pretty good, and i got some nice compliments. The second had a STRONG overpowering smokey taste, especially the aftertaste. Now here's the interesting thing. My third had a slightly less smokey taste in the first set of ~6 bottles I chilled, but the ones that sat at room temp a week or two longer didn't.

I know I haven't given a lot of specific information, but is there something to the time from bottling to chilling here? Would you suspect this is due to chilling too soon? These are double IPA kits I've bought on Amazon, and they've been different brews. I was afraid I botched #2 somehow, but the way #3 came around, maybe not.

Thanks,

Mike

Could it be the taste is more like bandaids or rubber tire and not smoky?
may I take a guess these were all extract kits? and is the water youre using chlorinated (city water)?
The extract kits Ive tried all tasted weird to me.

 

[Booyah!]

Could it be the taste is more like bandaids or rubber tire and not smoky?
may I take a guess these were all extract kits? and is the water youre using chlorinated (city water)?
The extract kits Ive tried all tasted weird to me.

I'd definitely say it was is a smokey taste, but we do use city water. Detroit city water is regarded as among the safest, but it is chlorinated. I think I'll try using distilled water in my next batch, because several people have commented on the chlorine factor.

I have my latest batch in the carboy for secondary firmentation, and this was the first time I really paid attention to not allowing the temp to get too high while boiling. I'm anxious to see how this one turns out.

 

[ba-brewer]

Look closer at your bottle cleaning and sanitizing. The batch that started off worst then got better could be some bottles were cleaned better than others.

What do you use for cleaning and sanitizing?

If not already using go with a no rinse product like starsan and add Camden to the water you use to make it. Maybe switch to different product if you are already using a no rinse product.

 

[kingmatt]

My first thought is infection. You said you "scrub everything" , but what do you use to sanitize?

 

[RPh_Guy]

several people have commented on the chlorine factor.

Yeast can produce chlorophenols when chlorinated water is used. These chlorophenols can produce a plastic taste like "band-aid". Chlorophenols are a type of phenol, as the name suggests.

Wild yeast and bacteria can produce a huge range of flavors, some of which are phenols.
Smoky would be an example of a phenolic flavor.

People are confused because band-aid and smoky are both phenols, but they are different compounds and they occur under different circumstances.

Smoky taste absolutely does NOT come from chlorinated water. You definitely need to review your cleaning and sanitation processes.