Ashtray Kolsch - Sulfur?

[wepeeler]

So I managed to make a decent lager with nice sulfur characteristics using a quick lager method - 50F for 3 days, 55F for 3 days, 60F for 2 days, 65F for 2 days. Clean, clear and delicious.

Tried my hand at my Kolsch (I know it's an ale...), yet again. It was my house beer. Now I can't seem to replicate it! I'm getting sulfur, but in a bad way. Smells great. Initial flavor is great, then BAM, burnt match. Literally tastes like an ashtray. Fermented 62F 24 hours, 65F for 24 hours, and it was at FG. Super fast fermentation. Could it be an infection? Definitely the fastest fermentation I've had outside of Kviek.

I let it ride 3 weeks in primary at 70, after reaching FG.

A guy in my brew club said to just let it condition, and it should go away. I can't imagine this disappearing...

 

[rburrelli]

Was the yeast a repitch or fresh?

 

[wepeeler]

Was the yeast a repitch or fresh?

I made a 2L starter from a fairly recent (within a month) culture I harvested from a prior starter.

 

[mashinary]

What yeast did you use?

 

[wepeeler]

What yeast did you use?

WLP029 German Ale. Used it a bunch of times before and it's usually very clean. Low esters, diacetyl and sulfur. Not this time!

 

[dmtaylor]

It sounds like the yeast was unhappy and started cannibalizing.

 

[wepeeler]

It sounds like the yeast was unhappy and started cannibalizing.

Crap. I've never had this issue in well over 100 batches. Same procedure as always. Big starter, harvest, brew, pitch, temp control = beer. Guess I'll just lager it and hope it improves!

 

[jdauria]

If you keg you could try kegging it and then releasing the pressure daily for a few weeks to off-gas sulfur. But "ashtray' flavor could be from scorched wort during the boil, sulfur is more rotten egg flavor and burnt match aroma..but a smokey flavor (if that's what you mean by ashtray could also be a phenolic off flavor and if that is the case, it's not going to go away thought it may mellow some. Happened to me once, made a pumpkin beer that wound up having this ashy cigar like taste to it.

 

[wepeeler]

If you keg you could try kegging it and then releasing the pressure daily for a few weeks to off-gas sulfur. But "ashtray' flavor could be from scorched wort during the boil, sulfur is more rotten egg flavor and burnt match aroma..but a smokey flavor (if that's what you mean by ashtray could also be a phenolic off flavor and if that is the case, it's not going to go away thought it may mellow some. Happened to me once, made a pumpkin beer that wound up having this ashy cigar like taste to it.

It's already been in a the keg for about a week. I can't say for sure it's scorched wort. My kettle is clean every time I use it, and I don't do crazy boils. Just a rolling boil. I've done ROARING boils and never had this flavor in any other beer, hence why I'm trying to pick everyone's brain. I figured it won't go away, but I'll try off-gassing for a few weeks, or until I need the room. It's super potent, but only as an aftertaste. I get zero ashtray aroma. So weird. Appreciate the help!

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry to hear you're suddenly having beer problems.

High sulphur can point to yeast stress, lack of nutrients.
Ashtray is usually due to scorching.

Fermented 62F 24 hours, 65F for 24 hours, and it was at FG.

That's awfully fast! Certainly for WLP029.

Don't rule out infections, they happen.
Have you checked and cleaned your kettle exit port lately?
Also on the cold side, fermenter valves, spigots, etc.?

 

[wepeeler]

Sorry to hear you're suddenly having beer problems.

High sulphur can point to yeast stress, lack of nutrients.
Ashtray is usually due to scorching.


That's awfully fast! Certainly for WLP029.

Don't rule out infections, they happen.
Have you checked and cleaned your kettle exit port lately?
Also on the cold side, fermenter valves, spigots, etc.?

It was ridiculously fast. That's why I'm wondering if I had an infection. No sour or tartness though. It's straight ashtray. One time, while camping, I took a swig of a beer bottle that someone had put out a cigarette in. Tastes like that lol.

It could be yeast stress, I guess. I built a starter from a culture I harvested from a previous starter. Same process as I always do...

I actually don't use my kettle exit port. I pick up my kettle and dump into fermentor. I disassemble my kettle and FV after each use, soak in PBW, rinse, then Star San. I'm usually pretty anal about stuff like that. I might go through and deep clean everything again. Can't hurt!

 

[IslandLizard]

It could be yeast stress, I guess. I built a starter from a culture I harvested from a previous starter. Same process as I always do...

I'm reusing yeast derived from saved starters for years at end, some have been going for 10 years like that. Sure, I have picked up an infection from time to time, so that yeast gets tossed or repurposed.

I'd start with a fresh yeast pack and thoroughly inspect, clean, and sanitize everything the wort and beer touches. Then brew another batch.

Cold side tubing is always suspect to harboring bugs over time, so maybe replace that racking hose. I also BKF the inside of my stainless racking cane from time to time using a long draw brush. I was surprised how much gray/brown crud came out of it the first time.

What sanitizer are you using? Maybe switch to "the other one" for a while to kill the other side of the spectrum.
I use Starsan routinely but switch to Iodophor every once in a while for that reason.

Are you perhaps reusing a foam plug on your starter flask?

So I managed to make a decent lager with nice sulfur characteristics

Is sulphur an acquired taste?

"Nice" in that context to me means NONE at all! I'm terribly sensitive to sulphur, even the slightest whiff is off putting to me. Same with Isovaleric and Isobutyric. I'd rather drink diacetyl, I can handle that.

 

[wepeeler]

I'm reusing yeast derived from saved starters for years at end, some have been going for 10 years like that. Sure, I have picked up an infection from time to time, so that yeast gets tossed or repurposed.

I'd start with a fresh yeast pack and thoroughly inspect, clean, and sanitize everything the wort and beer touches. Then brew another batch.

Cold side tubing is always suspect to harboring bugs over time, so maybe replace that racking hose. I also BKF the inside of my stainless racking cane from time to time using a long draw brush. I was surprised how much gray/brown crud came out of it the first time.

What sanitizer are you using? Maybe switch to "the other one" for a while to kill the other side of the spectrum.
I use Starsan routinely but switch to Iodophor every once in a while for that reason.

Are you perhaps reusing a foam plug on your starter flask?


Is sulphur an acquired taste?

"Nice" in that context to me means NONE at all! I'm terribly sensitive to sulphur, even the slightest whiff is off putting to me. Same with Isovaleric and Isobutyric. I'd rather drink diacetyl, I can handle that.

I'm def going to start with a fresh pack and thoroughly clean my equipment.

As for the sulfur in lagers...if done well, I really enjoy it. I've been able to sample quite a few German Pilsners this year, and I've become fond of the sulfur notes in them. There's obviously a difference between good and bad sulfur, as I've just become aware of!

 

[wepeeler]

A follow-up question would be I'm guessing you can taste scorched wort right after the boil, yeah? Does it get worse with fermentation?

 

[IslandLizard]

A follow-up question would be I'm guessing you can taste scorched wort right after the boil, yeah? Does it get worse with fermentation?

Yes it does.
You should be able to taste a (badly enough) scorched wort right away, but the sweetness covers up a lot. Once it ferments, the drier the beer gets, the more it sticks out.

 

[wepeeler]

Yes it does.
You should be able to taste a (badly enough) scorched wort right away, but the sweetness covers up a lot. Once it ferments, the drier the beer gets, the more it sticks out.

Gotcha. I used to taste every wort at the end of brew day, but I've gotten away from that. Guess I should start again? Especially for lighter beers?

 

[IslandLizard]

I used to taste every wort at the end of brew day, but I've gotten away from that. Guess I should start again? Especially for lighter beers?

If you suspect scorching may have occurred, absolutely, taste it. But above all, find ways not to scorch in the first place. Scorching usually leaves a gray/brown plaque on the bottom of the kettle that's hard to remove.

sulfur is more rotten egg flavor and burnt match aroma..but a smokey flavor (if that's what you mean by ashtray could also be a phenolic off flavor

Burnt wort/mash can also smell and taste a bit smokey, aside from the putrid smell of an ashtray. Especially with sticky mashes and worts scorching can be an issue, like high rye or wheat content. Or lots of powder coming through the mesh and settling on the bottom, underneath the basket or bag.

 

[wepeeler]

If you suspect scorching may have occurred, absolutely, taste it. But above all, find ways not to scorch in the first place. Scorching usually leaves a gray/brown plaque on the bottom of the kettle that's hard to remove.


Burnt wort/mash can also smell and taste a bit smokey, aside from the putrid smell of an ashtray. Especially with sticky mashes and worts scorching can be an issue, like high rye or wheat content. Or lots of powder coming through the mesh and settling on the bottom, underneath the basket or bag.

I've 100% never scorched wort. That's why I'm so stumped.

 

[jdauria]

Ok so you never have scorched wort, and WLP029 is usually only mildly sulfery and fades with age. You did kind of rush the beer using the fast lager method, maybe something went wrong with harvesting? How many generations old was this yeast slurry? But ashtray and sulfur are not the same thing. I would take it to the best brewer in your club, or if you have a high ranked beer judge in your club and ask them if it's just sulfur or not. My club is lucky to have a nationally ranked judge/pro brewer to run our beers by for off-flavors and such. BTW, where in CT are you? Born and raised in New Haven but moved to Mass in '84. Was just home two weeks ago for a Frank Pepe's run though!

 

[wepeeler]

Ok so you never have scorched wort, and WLP029 is usually only mildly sulfery and fades with age. You did kind of rush the beer using the fast lager method, maybe something went wrong with harvesting? How many generations old was this yeast slurry? But ashtray and sulfur are not the same thing. I would take it to the best brewer in your club, or if you have a high ranked beer judge in your club and ask them if it's just sulfur or not. My club is lucky to have a nationally ranked judge/pro brewer to run our beers by for off-flavors and such. BTW, where in CT are you? Born and raised in New Haven but moved to Mass in '84. Was just home two weeks ago for a Frank Pepe's run though!

Well, I assumed it's Sulfur, but it's definitely ashtray. I'llll probably just brew another version and dump this one to be honest. I've had nothing but good luck with WLP029. 2nd Gen. I made a Starter from a culture I harvested from the 1st starter I made from a fresh pack. Same technique as I always do. Fermentation was literally 48 hours, so that's why I'm thinking it was contaminated.

I'm in Plantsville, CT. Originally from Naugatuck. Been working in Southington for 21 years. Can't wait to get the heck out lol.

 

[ehall]

you could prob cover that up with some orange syrup.