Applejack questions I couldn't find the answers to

[twofocused]

I have read and google fu'd until my eyes are ready to bleed but there are a few questions that I cannot find answers to. Let me tell you the game plan so you can better answer my questions. I'm looking at doing 5 gallons AJ, yeast energizer, and Nottingham yeast and will ferment around 65 degrees for as long as needed.

1. I fully understand that methanol will be present in the same amount as the 5 gallon batch but, someone had mentioned letting it sit at 170 degrees on the stove top after jacking. I read this and it seemed interesting but, no one commented on it and the thread was from 2007 so I didn't waste my time pm'ing that member. Would this work to reduce methanol if nothing but, for taste sake.

2. Should I clear it before or after jacking? Once again a fellow member did a detailed write up of "Apple Lightning" and he said to never clear (finings,gelatin,etc) before jacking but, didn't say why.

3. Can I freeze a better bottle. I though it would be nice to just freeze a better bottle in a deep freeze and then turn upside down on top of a sanitized bucket to catch the jack. Think it would work or would it contort the bottle?

Thanks, J
aka just a new excited cider maker

 

[MindenMan]

Whenever ethanol is made , there will always be a small amount of methanol produced. If you put your AJ on the stove, you will evaporate much more that just the methanol simply due to the inability to rapid cool. The whole methanol, ethanol debate still goes on. Ferment as cool as is possible, don't add pectic enzyme, and in order to die, you would have to drink 8000 ml (approx 8 quarts) all in one sitting.

 

[twofocused]

I'm not worried about the methanol I was just wondering if there was a way to reduce it for taste purposes.

 

[podz]

I'm not worried about the methanol I was just wondering if there was a way to reduce it for taste purposes.

Alcohol doesn't have a taste.

 

[twofocused]

Methanol has a taste from what I read on other forums that discuss heads, hearts, and tails.

 

[Peruvian802]

As a form of distillation, jacking is illegal without a federal license.

Just sayin'.

 

[twofocused]

As a form of distillation, jacking is illegal without a federal license.

Just sayin'.

It is perfectly legal. In the grey area of the law in my opinion but, legal. It has been proven so numerous times on this forum. I don't have the exact link but, someone will be post it sooner or later.

Freeze concentration.

 

[MindenMan]

If freeze concentration was illegal, every ice beer produced by non distilleries would be asking for the ATF to visit.

 

[podz]

If freeze concentration was illegal, every ice beer produced by non distilleries would be asking for the ATF to visit.

The definition of "beer concentrate" in 27 CFR 25.11 does not include a beer whose volume has been reduced as long as there is not more than a 0.5 percent by volume reduction in the beer, and the resultant product retains its character as beer.

ATF has been asked whether the removal of a small quantity of water from beer renders that beer a concentrate under 25.11 and Subpart R of regulations in 27 CFR Part 25. This question has arisen as a result of the process used by some brewers in making ''ice beer."

Background. Beer is defined at 26 U.S.C. 5052 as "Beer, ale, porter, stout, and other similar fermented beverages (including sake or similar products) of any name or description containing one-half of one percent or more of alcohol by volume, brewed or produced from malt, wholly or in part, or from any substitute for malt."

27 CFR 25.11 defines concentrate as "Concentrate produced from beer by the removal of water under the provisions of Subpart R of this part." This section further states that the processes of concentration and reconstitution of beer are authorized processes in the production of beer.

http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/94-3.htm

 

[MindenMan]

Okay, now that I have looked this ruling until my eyes bled, I am still not clear, is freeze concentration legal or not?

 

[WissaBrewGuy]

FREEZE CONCENTRATION IS LEGAL!!!!

Now that that is out of the way I can answer your questions as best I can as I have only concentrated beers not Apple cider.

See this thread I started about beers clarifying in freeze:

I would suggest clarifying to the point where you want it to go because after concentrating my beers have these tiny little bubbles in them, they look like grains of sand but smaller; that is apparently the concentrated sugar and it does reduce when the beer warms up but my first beer concentrate was cloudy going in to the freezer and cloudy coming out.

You could freeze in a better bottle as long as you leave room for ample expansion. I split my 5gal batch up into two batches: I racked one into a 3gal carboy and racked 2gal into a 2gal plastic fermenter bucket. I drilled a hole in the lower side of the bucket (kind of like a bottling bucket) and installed a valve. I froze the beer in batches in this bucket then drained it off to a 1gal carboy and refroze. I did this three times until I ended up with 1/6th of what I started with. This made an insane rich creamy scotch ale with at least 24% although I have not done any freeze testing to determine its actual percentage.

The better bottle will work but you may have to freeze and thaw many times to bring as much flavor and alcohol as possible out of the liquid.

 

[WissaBrewGuy]

Here is that thread. Not much there but interesting nonetheless.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/freeze-concentration-sediment-438969/

 

[podz]

Okay, now that I have looked this ruling until my eyes bled, I am still not clear, is freeze concentration legal or not?

I researched it a bit and the way I understand it, it's only legal if you do it with beer and then it's only legal if it doesn't exceed a 0.5% reduction. This refers to USA federal law. Other countries may vary.

 

[wooda2008]

I have read and google fu'd until my eyes are ready to bleed but there are a few questions that I cannot find answers to. Let me tell you the game plan so you can better answer my questions. I'm looking at doing 5 gallons AJ, yeast energizer, and Nottingham yeast and will ferment around 65 degrees for as long as needed.

1. I fully understand that methanol will be present in the same amount as the 5 gallon batch but, someone had mentioned letting it sit at 170 degrees on the stove top after jacking. I read this and it seemed interesting but, no one commented on it and the thread was from 2007 so I didn't waste my time pm'ing that member. Would this work to reduce methanol if nothing but, for taste sake.

2. Should I clear it before or after jacking? Once again a fellow member did a detailed write up of "Apple Lightning" and he said to never clear (finings,gelatin,etc) before jacking but, didn't say why.

3. Can I freeze a better bottle. I though it would be nice to just freeze a better bottle in a deep freeze and then turn upside down on top of a sanitized bucket to catch the jack. Think it would work or would it contort the bottle?

Thanks, J
aka just a new excited cider maker

1. If you successfully "drive off" the methanol, you will have also cooked your jack and changed the flavor. Not worth the extra effort to avoid a hangover and there's not enough methanol there to change the taste.
Avoid pectic enzyme

2. Clear before, and rack off the sediment. It's better to lose an inch of cider to dregs than an inch of jack.

3. You can, but I wouldn't if you want to use it for fermentation again. I'm paranoid about microscratches from the ice crystals. As that Wissabrewguy said, leave room for expansion. Winpacks were practically made for this, though.