Apfelwein Checkup!

[electrolight]

So I am new to this whole brewing thing but I saw the Apfelwein thread and it just seemed tooo easyy.... So I followed the directions to the t (I'm good at that ). But I have a few questions if any of the pros could help me out.

I used organic apple juice whose ingredients were:
"Pasteurized, pure, unfiltered juice from washed, select, ripe organic apples."

I don't plan on racking to secondary. I used glass because I just am skeptical of plastic. I know I know, it is "harmless". But I have read to many peer-reviewed scientific articles to believe it. Anyways, that's about it I suppose. Oh and I bought an Italian champagne corker to bottle a case worth of Belgian bottles (enjoying) and the rest into 12oz bottles (sampling).

I know I know, this whole endeavor was a big start up cost but my German roots coerce me to do something once and do it correctly. So I'd rather save up and go all out, than piddle around doing something half ***. Anyways... back on track.

Questions:
1) Since the day I bought the juice, it was never clear. But I've read that I should wait for bottling until "the fermentation process makes the fluid clear again." That, "again" is throwing me off. Will it get clear if it never was clear to begin with? Should I just bottle after 5 weeks like I planned?

2) The carbonation has slowed considerably (like it is supposed to). But I am wondering, since I will bottle, will the yeast be alive to process the priming sugar to carbonate? Or will it die after sitting there without food for a few weeks? Thus, do I need to re-pitch some yeast? If so, how much of a packet?

3) I am wondering if everything looks ok. It looks like something is cakeing at the bottom. People call it yeast in the forums but um, isn't it, um... excretion? Will it mess with flavor? Also, I read racking to secondary wasn't necessary, and I just want to remain as traditional as I can (with reason) so I am wondering how beer making was done in 1600's. Was beer racked to secondary?

4) How does it look!? Any tips?

Happy Brewing!
Electrolight

PS: Sorry for such a long post. I'm just trying to be thorough.

 

[jro238]

The stuff at the bottom is really just yeast cells and whatever particulate has settled out of the juice. The yeast will stay alive for quite some time since they basically go dormant when they are in an environment with low levels of sugar so you probably won't need to re-pitch for bottling.

As for #1, I don't actually know. I made this once but used Motts apple juice (which is clear). I would assume that it would be OK to bottle if it's still cloudy (i.e. it probably wont effect the taste, just the look). Eventually all of the particulate will settle out but it might take a while.

 

[oxpajama]

electrolight,
doin it right the first time:rockin:

for reference here is a cyser I brewed June of 2012, bottled 8/25/13. I did like you and used unfiltered organic juice. I added pectin enzyme at different stages after fermentation to get it to clear, then gelatin, twice. It finally cleared up after sitting at 32 for a month. Good luck.

 

[electrolight]

The stuff at the bottom is really just yeast cells and whatever particulate has settled out of the juice. The yeast will stay alive for quite some time since they basically go dormant when they are in an environment with low levels of sugar so you probably won't need to re-pitch for bottling.

As for #1, I don't actually know. I made this once but used Motts apple juice (which is clear). I would assume that it would be OK to bottle if it's still cloudy (i.e. it probably wont effect the taste, just the look). Eventually all of the particulate will settle out but it might take a while.

The dormancy is good to know, thanks. Any Idea how long yeast can go dormant? I know alcohol kills yeast so the higher the ABV the less long it could live. But I'm just curious, are we talking weeks of dormancy, months, years?

Personally I think the cloudiness makes it look cool. But that is just my opinion. But taste is of up-most importance so as long as it tastes the same that is good.

Thanks for the tips jro238!

electrolight,
doin it right the first time:rockin:

for reference here is a cyser I brewed June of 2012, bottled 8/25/13. I did like you and used unfiltered organic juice. I added pectin enzyme at different stages after fermentation to get it to clear, then gelatin, twice. It finally cleared up after sitting at 32 for a month. Good luck.

Thanks,

And that looks like some delicious Honey Mead. So was the gelatin and pectin simply for clearing? Or was it for flavor as well? What stage of fermentation did you dose those? And at what quantities? At when you said it cleared after sitting at 32 for a month. Do you mean 32F or 32C, either way those are extremes in either direction.

Thanks for the food for thought oxpajama!

 

[dgr]

I don't plan on racking to secondary. I used glass because I just am skeptical of plastic. I know I know, it is "harmless". But I have read to many peer-reviewed scientific articles to believe it.

You can't just drop a bomb like that and expect it to be ignored.

1) Since the day I bought the juice, it was never clear. But I've read that I should wait for bottling until "the fermentation process makes the fluid clear again." That, "again" is throwing me off. Will it get clear if it never was clear to begin with? Should I just bottle after 5 weeks like I planned?

I would not bottle a cloudy wine. I would also not bottle a wine on a timeline. It's done when it is done. In the future, you can hit your cider with pectinase 24 hours before adding your yeast. If it's pectin causing the problem it should break it down.

2) The carbonation has slowed considerably (like it is supposed to). But I am wondering, since I will bottle, will the yeast be alive to process the priming sugar to carbonate? Or will it die after sitting there without food for a few weeks? Thus, do I need to re-pitch some yeast? If so, how much of a packet?

Your yeast is fine and will be fine for months. There's upwards of 1,000,000 yeast cells in a mL of clear to the eye beer.

3) I am wondering if everything looks ok. It looks like something is cakeing at the bottom. People call it yeast in the forums but um, isn't it, um... excretion? Will it mess with flavor? Also, I read racking to secondary wasn't necessary, and I just want to remain as traditional as I can (with reason) so I am wondering how beer making was done in 1600's. Was beer racked to secondary?

Pretty sure yeast excretion is CO2 and ethanol. You're seeing dropped solids from the cloudy apple juice, dead yeast cells and live yeast cells that flocculated as they should.
I bet they didn't brew in plastic in the 1600's Likely didn't brew in glass either. You need to build yourself an open wooden or stone vat and let chance ferment your apfelwein if you want to be authentic.

4) How does it look!? Any tips?

It looks cloudy. But you knew that. It's great that you picked a really popular recipe to try. There are many people to help you along the way. But by using an unfiltered apple juice, you are back on the fringes as far as knowledge. You voided the warranty as it were. Maybe someone from the "Man, I love apfelwein" thread that used unfiltered juice will see your post. If not, you can ask in that thread or search that thread for "unfiltered" and see what you can see. IMHO, apfelwein should be made with the cheap juice. It's meant to be made and consumed quickly. On the upside, your picture towards the end of fermentation looks like the middle carboy in the first picture of the above thread. So hopefully you just need time for the yeast to settle and drag down any other suspended particles.

If it doesn't clear, there are a number of fining agents. Note gelatin is typically animal derived if that clashes with your organic sensibilities. I'm sure oxpajama used 32F to cold crash and clear.

You also have a lot of headspace. Now that you have experienced how mild the fermentation is with this recipe, I would suggest you fill your next batch up closer to the top.

 

[oxpajama]

Pectin works better with out alcohol present, wish I knew that then. Pectin enzyme breaks down pectin haze(added a tablespoon six months in), the gelatin is for baking which comes in little packets, people use it to clear yeast and other particles. Don't boil it, heat in 1/2 cup water stirring constantly, add to wine and stir gently. It works best at cooler temps, 32F for example. Alcohol lowers freazing temp, so conditioning really cold is fine.

Still a little young, needs to meld, citrusy and a little spicey, D47 is great.

 

[jro238]

The dormancy is good to know, thanks. Any Idea how long yeast can go dormant? I know alcohol kills yeast so the higher the ABV the less long it could live. But I'm just curious, are we talking weeks of dormancy, months, years?

Most yeast is totally fine until you get above 12-13% ethanol (and some strains will be ok even higher than that). As for exactly how long yeast can remain dormant in a fermentation temperature environment...it depends on factors like temperature and yeast strain but I can tell you for a fact that I have had a beer sit in primary for a little over 4 months at room temperature and it carbonated just fine in the bottle without me repitching. It isn't uncommon for people who harvest yeast to keep refrigerated cultures for ~6 months before using in another beer.

 

[DrunkleJon]

If it helps, I have made several batches of Apfelwein. Give it some time and it will clear. I give Apfelwein a minimum of 6 weeks - 2 months. I left one batch on the lees (in primary on the sediment) for 6 months and it was amazing. Yeast is far more tolerant now and will not give off flavors from long primaries so no worries there.

As for the viability of the yeast, it will wake back up when you bottle it, even if it is crystal clear there are still yeast in suspension, not to mention that you will most likely stir some up when you transfer to your bottling container/prime. Some homebrewers age beers for upwards to a year+ and not need to repitch.

 

[electrolight]

Wow, thanks so much for all the help guys/gals. I had a test last week so checked out for a while but great information here. Definitely quelled my worries.

Its 3 weeks and 1 day and 52 minutes in. (as of writing this reply). So I guess I have some time. If it doesn't clear by the 8th week I'll be back! ^^.

I appreciate it,
Electrolight

 

[electrolight]

Sorry to revive an essentially dead thread. But I have been doing a bunch of reading on the forums in the last 2 or so weeks. ( Seriously, a bunch... like alot... (I know... I got the bug now too... thanks alot... )) And I have some theories that the pros may be able to help verify/disprove.

I think the reason my apple juice may not have been clear to begin with is because there was small amounts of yeast suspended in the apple juice.

My logic is as follows: The organic apple juice was indeed pasteurized but we know that this does not necessarily mean that all micro organisms were killed (ie. some variant of yeast). So then the apple juice sits on the shelf for a while and can recover because it has fermentables present (ie. apple juice). However, it cannot finish, or even get very far for that matter, with the fermentation because it maxes out on airspace.

I only speculated this all because A) the liquid was cloudy and B) there was some trub at the bottom of the jugs (not alot) that looks alot like that of the yeast cake at the bottom of the FV right now.

Anyways... what do I know, I just started learning about brewing exactly a month ago. But maybe you guys/gals know?

Thanks!
Electrolight

 

[eltorrente]

.. However, it cannot finish, or even get very far for that matter, with the fermentation because it maxes out on airspace.

Did you to a hydrometer reading? That will tell you if it's done fermenting or not. My guess is that it's done. If you have a way to "cold crash" it, that would help clear it up. Otherwise, I'd bottle it and enjoy it and not worry about it. Next time use a different juice if the clarity bothers you, or just add gelatin and age it cold until it clears.

I would just bottle it and drink it up when it carbs. No need to fret.

 

[jro238]

Sorry to revive an essentially dead thread. But I have been doing a bunch of reading on the forums in the last 2 or so weeks. ( Seriously, a bunch... like alot... (I know... I got the bug now too... thanks alot... )) And I have some theories that the pros may be able to help verify/disprove.

I think the reason my apple juice may not have been clear to begin with is because there was small amounts of yeast suspended in the apple juice.

My logic is as follows: The organic apple juice was indeed pasteurized but we know that this does not necessarily mean that all micro organisms were killed (ie. some variant of yeast). So then the apple juice sits on the shelf for a while and can recover because it has fermentables present (ie. apple juice). However, it cannot finish, or even get very far for that matter, with the fermentation because it maxes out on airspace.

I only speculated this all because A) the liquid was cloudy and B) there was some trub at the bottom of the jugs (not alot) that looks alot like that of the yeast cake at the bottom of the FV right now.

Anyways... what do I know, I just started learning about brewing exactly a month ago. But maybe you guys/gals know?

Thanks!
Electrolight

If I understand correctly you are talking about the apple juice that you started with (like before you began making it into beer/cider)? I'm about 99% sure that the reason it is cloudy is just because it isn't filtered. This means that there is residual haze/particulate from the apples left in the bottle. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with yeast or fermentation (if the apple juice was fermenting in the bottles on the shelf then you would see a lot more exploding apple juice containers and drunk kids

I like the comparison (the 'trub' at the bottom of these bottles does look quite a bit like a yeast cake), but two totally different things.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Sorry to revive an essentially dead thread. But I have been doing a bunch of reading on the forums in the last 2 or so weeks. ( Seriously, a bunch... like alot... (I know... I got the bug now too... thanks alot... )) And I have some theories that the pros may be able to help verify/disprove.

I think the reason my apple juice may not have been clear to begin with is because there was small amounts of yeast suspended in the apple juice.

My logic is as follows: The organic apple juice was indeed pasteurized but we know that this does not necessarily mean that all micro organisms were killed (ie. some variant of yeast). So then the apple juice sits on the shelf for a while and can recover because it has fermentables present (ie. apple juice). However, it cannot finish, or even get very far for that matter, with the fermentation because it maxes out on airspace.

I only speculated this all because A) the liquid was cloudy and B) there was some trub at the bottom of the jugs (not alot) that looks alot like that of the yeast cake at the bottom of the FV right now.

Anyways... what do I know, I just started learning about brewing exactly a month ago. But maybe you guys/gals know?

Thanks!
Electrolight

Pasturization is not filtration. The bright clear apple juice that you see in stores is pasturized and filtered (like some beers are) to get every last little particulate piece out of suspension. As Jro said, the unfiltered will have sediment and particulate floating throughout. In time the haze will fall mostly out of suspension and it should clear nicely. Pasturization is pretty effective. I have had milk in my fridge left unopened for weeks past its expiration date and upon opening it smells and tastes as fresh as it would have the day it was bought at the store.