Anyone use singed polyester filter socks?

[kiblerjd]

Anyone ever use these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-2-x-5-M...370?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b9566802

I'm a v-vessel user and I could be crazy, but I feel like I'm getting a lot more yeast sediment in my kegs than I used to. I was thinking about hooking up one of these filters in-line as I drain from the v-vessel to the keg. I would think you could use them for any sort of beer filtering really. I would just maybe worry about it giving off some sort of flavor.

 

[kiblerjd]

Well ill assume by the severe lack of response that the answer is no. I bought some and got them the other day and they actually fit perfectly over the lid of a keg. So in a few weeks I'm going to gravity drain from my secondary through one and see how it goes. I may do a little test with water tonight just to see what the flow is like but there is a lot of surface area so I'm guessing it won't be an issue. You wouldn't have to have a v-vessel to use one of these. You could stick a racking cane hose in just the same. Of course if you are using a flat bottom vessel you may not even need this technique.

If anyone is actually interested I will post the results.

 

[dlovin]

I actually use those on my fish tank, I have a 90 gallon saltwater tank that I run something in the neighborhood of 600 gph through it, it works well for that and they are durable. I have thought about using them for filtering from BK to fermentors and also from secondary to keg. I'd love to hear how they work

 

[Bobby_M]

You really can't filter yeast via gravity through a filter. You need pressure. Also what are your plans for avoiding oxidation?

 

[kiblerjd]

Not that worried about oxidation. I'm going to lean the keg over so the sock will be laying right on the side of the keg. Should be very gentle. As for needing pressure i guess we will see. This thing has a ton of surface area and i think it may actually be able to handle it. If not it was a good experiment and i'm out $5.

 

[day_trippr]

Not that worried about oxidation. I'm going to lean the keg over so the sock will be laying right on the side of the keg. Should be very gentle. As for needing pressure i guess we will see. This thing has a ton of surface area and i think it may actually be able to handle it. If not it was a good experiment and i'm out $5.

If you're actually going to pour beer from a fermenter through that thing and have it dump into a keg, add in the cost of the batch...

Cheers!

 

[kiblerjd]

What do you mean? Can you be more specific as to why you think it will cost me the whole batch. I have a vvessel mounted to a wall and was going to slowly drain it out of the bottom through the normal hose that i always use to get it in the keg. Why would this ruin it?

 

[cheezydemon3]

Flavor?

I would taste the water you test for "flow".

 

[kiblerjd]

I definitely planned to taste the water during the test but I honestly wasn't worried about that either because tons of water filters out there are made of polyester. I think the spun water filters are made of literally the exact same material. I'm still curious why day_trippr thinks I'm going to ruin the entire batch.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I would fear oxidation a bit more.....that and the antioxidants in unfiltered homebrew are pretty well documented. What is your motivation?

 

[kiblerjd]

Honestly its just to prove a theory of mine. I am experienced enough and have been brewing long enough to know all of the things that make beer cloudy so I don't want this thread to turn into a big discussion on that. But anyway I think that yeast is settling out on the walls of my v-vessel and when I drain it to my keg it is all getting sent to the keg. It should all settle down into the ball but some doesn't.

There are many ways to solve this. I could gently stir the beer the day before and get a whirlpool so that it gets off the walls and settles to the bottom. I could wait a few extra weeks in the fermenter. Or I could do this filter thing.

My theory about this problem is based on the fact that I have seem more sediment than I am used to in my kegs when I clean them out. On top of that my beer is cloudy until the last 1/4 of the keg then it is completely crystal clear. I'm thinking that the yeast is sitting just barely below the dip tube and it picks up a tiny bit every time I pour a beer and its just enough to make it cloudy. There are definitely no chunks, but I really think it is yeast not chill haze.

I could also shorten my dip tubes but I don't really feel like doing that. I may go get a glass carboy to secondary in and see what happens.

And just to be clear this isn't something that is bothering me or driving me crazy. I would prefer clear beer but trust me I'm drinking it either way. So if the solution isn't cheap or easy then I'm just going to enjoy my incredibly tasty and slightly cloudy brew.

 

[cheezydemon3]

See, I believe proper chilling is key to removing cloudiness. Not filtering the eff out of it.

I do NO filter and have crystal clear beer. I chill more than most people.

 

[kiblerjd]

You have me intrigued. Please do explain.

If you are talking about cold crashing before you keg, then you have found the one major downfall of having a v-vessel.

I'm all ears. I certainly don't think I know it all and I'm always willing to listen and learn.

 

[kiblerjd]

Alright I did the test run tonight with just water and with my sink at full throttle this thing didn't even start to fill up. I completely understand that beer will not flow quite as quickly and that once the yeast gets in there it will slow down.

If you watch the video you will see why I don't think oxidation will be a problem at all. The fluid comes out of the bag very gently. I'm going to lay the sock right on the wall of the keg with the keg tilted a bit so the beer should very gently flow down the side of the keg. I don't see this being any rougher of a process than I already have when draining into my kegs.

And I tasted the water and there was zero taste imparted by the filter. If anything the water tasted better than it normally does.

After seeing this video and hearing my process can anyone really provide a reason why this would hurt the beer at all. How is this any different from pushing the beer through a traditional filter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbZD8TUZxr4&feature=youtu.be

 

[cheezydemon3]

I do the lazy man's chill.

I scale my recipes to produce 4 strong gallons from a 5 gallon recipe.

I boil that down to 3 gallons, dump that on 16.5 lbs or so of ice and my yeast. It gets it down to 60 or so in no time flat.

NOTHING chills faster or more effectively. Ice floats....think about that.....heat rises. Frighteningly efficient.

Once it gets up to 67F or so, I put it in my chest freezer at 45F and this holds it around 67 until fermentation is about done. When it starts to drop in temp, I let it finish at room temp.

 

[Bobby_M]

Alright I did the test run tonight with just water and with my sink at full throttle this thing didn't even start to fill up. I completely understand that beer will not flow quite as quickly and that once the yeast gets in there it will slow down.

I know you know this, because you said it, but just for discussion's sake...

Water molecules are about 1nm wide so that's .001 microns which obviously fall right through a 5 micron filter. It's when you start putting several million yeast cells in there that will slow things down. Maybe it will work fine.

Oxidation will be reduced if you flood the keg with Co2.

 

[kiblerjd]

Right on man. The big question is how slow. Haha. I'm gonna find out.

 

[day_trippr]

I was asked to expand on my rather terse observation early on.

Oxidation is totally what I would be worried with trying to use this "sock" in free air and pouring wort through it to a receiving vessel. With everything exposed to oxygen through the process there's no doubt some degree of oxidation will occur - and that degree could range up to "fatal".

As I understand the current scheme, the filter would be positioned along the side of the receiving vessel such that the output would "slide" down the sidewall. Sounds good - except that will spread out the flow, increasing surface area vs volume, which will increase exposure.

Bobby's idea of purging the receiving vessel with CO2 will help, but with the lid wide open the whole time the beer is transferring, it's likely the benefit will be modest. Air will find it's way into an open receiver, period. And if the filter loads up way before the batch has passed through and the flow slows to a dribble, the surface area vs volume goes through the proverbial roof, and it's totally Game Over for that batch.

Thinking about this a bit, if the filter could be housed in its own vessel with only an input and output port that could be coupled via tubing to the sending and receiving vessels, then purge everything from end to end with CO2 prior to starting the flow, and then push with CO2, that would cut the exposure dramatically - maybe even completely.

Whether the filter will actually make it through the whole operation before it loads up so badly it won't pass beer is a whole 'nuther story. I would definitely rack way high off the trub cone until the very end so as not to risk quickly loading the filter - and even then consider leaving a solid couple of inches of beer behind in the fermenter (rack the remains to a couple of 2 liter bottles and carb them with a cap rather than risk the bulk of the batch).

Oxidation happens. It's a major concern for "real" breweries such that they measure O2 pickup during packaging in microliters and do all kinds of things to try to get to zero. This scheme above is pretty much starting at the complete opposite end of the scale, and if not addressed the result could be undrinkable in short order.

So there you go...Mission Accomplished...

Cheers!

 

[kiblerjd]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.

 

[day_trippr]

You asked the question, even asked me to expound on my initial response - and then you come back with that?

Wow.

Good luck anyway...

 

[kiblerjd]

Deleted

 

[day_trippr]

Sorry, but when someone actually PMs me to expound in a thread - and then responds by saying I was taking something personally - that's just a bit too hinky for me to wrap my brain around.

If you want to consider this whole idea a science experiment and be willing to lose a good part of the batch in the offing, reserve five gallons of the batch transferred in a safe and sane manner to a separate vessel and crash it. Then compare the results a month down the road with what comes out from the filtering scheme. If you can't tell the difference, you're golden.

I had one batch in the last few years where my autosiphon was causing intermittent bursts of bubbles while kegging a five gallon batch. I bet there was less than two ounces (by volume) of air involved, but it was very much evident two weeks later when the carbonation was nearly perfect. So I've been wicked paranoid about oxidation ever since...

Cheers!

 

[cheezydemon3]

I was pmd and asked to explain something, and then when I did, I WAS IGNORED! Alas! The internets....

 

[kiblerjd]

I'm so confused here. This is my first experience on this board where I have pissed two people off when I didn't mean to and I apparently can't make it better. alas the internet. I appreciate the help both of you have provided. I don't know what else to say.

 

[day_trippr]

Remain calm and keep drinking.

I wasn't pissed off. Annoyed, yes...

Cheers!

 

[cheezydemon3]

I was kidding!!!!

means "wink"



......right?

 

[kiblerjd]

Well I'm worried enough that I may just bail on the idea and try something different or nothing at all. My kegs are on tap for several months and I don't want the beer to skunk.

For the oxidation does temperature play a factor in that. I guess what I'm asking is if the beer stay cold after its kegged and never gets warmed up does that significantly help or does it not really matter. I'm asking that out of pure ignorance.

As for the chilling I just assumed that you were talking about cold crashing after fermentation not after the boil. That is a really awesome way to do it. I was fortunate to get a convoluted counter flow wort chiller as a present like 10 years ago and that thing can drop the temp of beer down to 60 as fast as I can pump beer through it. Do you cold condition after fermentation at all?. You see I'm cold crashing really well just like you which is why I'm thinking all of my haze is caused by yeast. It could be 100 things though.

I'm thinking about just letting the beer sit in the fermenter a few extra weeks to see what happens vice try this filter thing and waste an entire batch of beer. If there is visible yeast on the walls i'll either extremely gently stir and let settle before kegging or just wait longer. I was only spending 1 week in primary and 2 weeks in secondary so maybe bump it up to 5 weeks total. When I say secondary I mean dump the ball.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Post fermentation, any air bubbles will cause oxidation.

Most bottlers have a smidge of bubbles with no problem, but something like a sock, presumeably holding little tiny air pockets that will have fermented beer forced through them sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Even soaking the sock in no rinse or even beer is no guarantee of removing all bubbles.

I chill the hell out of the hot wort, ferment coolish, syphon into the serving keg "warm" (no cold crash) and let it cool under high pressure.

 

[kiblerjd]

Yeah I'm going to bail on the idea. That is $6 down the drain but who cares. Like I said earlier this was more of an experiment and when I really think about it I would rather have cloudy beer than no beer.

I kicked a keg of irish red last night (which was amazing by the way http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/lakefront-brewery-fixed-gear-pro-series-all-grain-kit.html). I'm going to open that keg and see what the sediment situation looks like and maybe see if that is what is causing my problem. I'll try to snap a picture if possible.

I'm really convinced this is my problem but maybe not. I feel like all my other haze bases are covered. I get a rippin boil going, I use irish moss or whirfloc, and I have a convoluted counter flow chiller so my cold break is about as good as it can get. In my mind it shouldn't take 2 months in a keg to clear a beer but maybe I'm wrong.

As I say at work all the time "I know enough to know that I don't know $hit".

 

[ManhattanProjectBrewing]

I may be way off base regarding your particular situation but using additional finings at packaging may potentially solve your problem for good. I as well experienced some minor issues in the same respect. I am a nut job when it comes to goals and for some reason, on a few styles I enjoy, I NEEDED clarity in the final product. After countless methods, experimentation, frustration, and lack-luster results I employed a time-honored method I had yet to try….. Plain ol’ Knox Gelatin.

• 5.0 – 5.25 Gal product
• X2 sachet (Packets) Plain, unflavored Knox Gelatin
• FULLY Dissolved in 8oz boiling water
• Let rest in sanitized QT Mason Jar while the keg fills
• Add contents prior to sealing the keg and purging oxygen
• Once the keg is sealed and purged shake back and forth several times to mix contents
• Chill / carb as usual

After about 3-5 days (Normal carb time for me / my system @ 18psi) the Gelatin will bind with free proteins, yeast, and any particles that have yet to settle. Granted, the first 12-16 ounces will have some chunks but it’s just the particulate matter bound to collagen (Gelatin)…. Drink it if you want (I DO! It’s good for your joints!) or throw it down the drain… Either way, I have been impressed with how easy, effective, and consistent the process / results have been.... Clarity: In both mind and beer.

Cheers,

-JM

 

[kiblerjd]

I have been tossing around the idea of using gelatin for a long time and for some reason never pulled the trigger. In my head I guess I have thought of it as an extra time consuming step. Looking at it now, its no different than this filter scheme I came up with and in reality is probably quicker, cheaper, and more effective. I may just have to give it a try.

The only thing I will say is maybe I'm just not giving the beer enough time in the keg. I don't brew enough to keep a stash on hand so typically after two weeks in the keggerator I can't wait any longer and I start drinking the beer. I have read that yeast/chill haze should clear within a couple weeks but my beers seem to take closer to a month to clear out which usually corresponds with the last few pints in the keg.

I screwed up on my last batch and forgot the whirfloc so maybe this is a good candidate for the gelatin experiment.

 

[JoseLima]

The only issue with that gravity rack through that sock filter is that the beer with separate as to a nice flow through a racking cane. With the beer separating it can potentially allow oxygen to enter beer easier and then as you force carb forcing that residual oxygen into beer and oxidizing beer. Some off flavor include phenolic; band aid medicinal etc. What I have done is before I rack into keg I put my carboy somewhere high as a final place right before I rack so it can settle. I found that lifting bucket or carboy and placing I'm somewhere stirs beer and wakes up all the sediment then when u rack.. u rack in keg. So leave carboy in a high spot and then don't move it and rack from there.

joselima

 

[kiblerjd]

I don't rack that's my entire problem. I have a v-vessel so I drain out of the bottom. Even if I did rack out of the v-vessel the result would be the same because anything that settles on the walls is going straight to the bottom when I drain.

In the end I'm still going to drink the beer either way, and I'm going to be happy while doing it.

 

[kiblerjd]

I kegged today and didn't use the filters. I figured it wasn't worth the risk you guys are talking about. I didn't notice the beer was clearer than I remember when I was draining it. The very beginning and the very end were a little cloudy but other than that not bad. I think the extra week in the fermenter helped but time will tell. I took a little pull this evening and this is going to be a flat out awesome beer clear or not.

 

[kiblerjd]

I was going to start a new thread but figured i would see if anyone sees this post buried in here. So the whole point of these socks was to get clearer beer. Again i'm not stressing over this issue but would like to eventually fix it. I have been paying more attention lately and my last two beers have taken 6 weeks to clear in the keg. This seems really long to me even for chill haze. I use whirfloc, have a rippin boil, and rapidly cool the beer going into the fermenter. I'm obviously doing something wrong with my process but i have no clue what it is. I have read a hundred threads and articles about this and i feel like i have all the major bases covered. Trying to figure out where in my process i'm going wrong.

The only thing i was considering today when brewing was that when i'm draining thewort from my mash tun to the kettle it is never really "clear". There are no chunks or grains in it or anything but is definitely never transparent. Wondering if this could have anything to do with it. I would think hot/cold break and whifloc should counteract that.

Anyway i'm open to ideas and suggestions. One thing i should mention is that every beer i am talking about was dry hopped for 7 days in the secondary prior to kegging. The beer i brewed today will not be dry hopped so maybe that is another test.


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[kiblerjd]

I did an experiment with a a few half pints just for the sake of science. I will post pics later but the results were not satisfying. I filtered one through the sock, added gelatin to one, and did nothing to one. The gelatin one was kept in the fridge for 2 days and was so cloudy you couldn't see through it at all. All sitting at room temp a day later and clarity is much better but exactly the same on all three. Any clues as to what this should tell me.


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[kiblerjd]

I can't get any pictures that are decent. I put the gelatin one back in the fridge and it went back to being cloudy. So it's definitely chill haze. So I'm glad I didn't filter the beer because it would have basically done nothing. The question is what type of chill haze would gelatin not remove? The kind from dry hopping?


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[fearwig]

These filter out proteins well, but after a few uses they felt and clog very quickly. If you want clarity, you really want finings--or proper filtration with pressure.


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