Anyone take a Kal Clone and...

[jmark]

... converted it somehow to use a software based PID solution like Strangebrew Elsinore?

Curious how possible this might be as I already have a Kal Clone that I built from scratch but the lure of being able to automate some activities like heating up strike water while I'm still asleep has me thinking (not always a good thing)...

EDIT for clarity... I'd like to be able to use either manual mode or software mode if at all possible (I.e. In case the software crashes etc.)

 

[MrShake]

That should be very simple. Kal Clones just use PIDs, you just need to connect the same outputs to the outputs on the controller you decide on. Not difficult at all!!

I could help you get started with a BrewTroller for sure!

 

[jmark]

I think I follow that, but presumably I'll need to somehow bypass the hard switch for the element as well, right (and pumps too)?

 

[MrShake]

Well, yes, but no. (Again, I'll speak for BrewTroller as thats my expertise). You would probably not use the hard switch, but many folks do use an expansion board like the RBGIO to have 3 way switchtes that give them On/Off/Auto control over their elements. Gives you the ability to turn on or off your elements if you need to, but also then just allow the controller to handle it most of the time.

 

[jmark]

Okay... so I'd replace my existing on/off switches with three-ways... the element control might be a bit difficult in that case though as that's already a three-way (boil/off/hlt), but maybe use the 'off' position as the 'auto'?

Any chance you could draw up a schematic assuming I tried integrating Brewtroller? If this is actually pretty easy, that may become my next project!

 

[MrShake]

Okay... so I'd replace my existing on/off switches with three-ways... the element control might be a bit difficult in that case though as that's already a three-way (boil/off/hlt), but maybe use the 'off' position as the 'auto'?

Any chance you could draw up a schematic assuming I tried integrating Brewtroller? If this is actually pretty easy, that may become my next project!

Can you get me some photos of your rig outside and in?

 

[jmark]

Sure thing... Much appreciate. I'll take some pics tonight, but it was built to Kal's specs from his site www.theelectricbrewery.com with the only change being that I never hooked up the safe start interlock. I guess one thing that may be problematic is that I use RTD temp probes and BT uses One-Wire probes, right?

 

[TechyDork]

My system is a Kal clone that uses SBE running on a Rasberry Pi. I use one wire probes for all my temps. I also have a Sain Smart 4 relay board that could be used to switch the pumps on and off, but I have not installed it yet as I find it is just as easy for me to manually switch them on and off. I have three way switches on my pumps that was originally going to be for Auto/Off/On, but as I said i have yet to install the board to allow SBE to switch the pumps.

You don't need to bypass the switch for the elements. You just take the SSR signal wires that were connected to the PID in the Kal clone and connecting them to the board on whatever controller you install SBE on. There is quite a bit of info on how to set up SBE on a RasPi or Beagle Bone and getting the PID's tuned and ready to go.

I am still learning all of the in's and outs of SBE, but I have been very happy with it. You can set it up so that your mash temps will automatically change after a certain time, say to mash out temps after 60 min, or even multi step mash profiles.

So really all you need to change is remove the PIDs and install the RasPi with SBE on it and start brewing. Oh and you'll need WiFi in your brew area.

 

[TechyDork]

Also i think there are a couple of guys here that have even install touch screen panels in the control panels and just run everything native on the RasPi itself as opposed to via a web browser on a laptop or tablet, but I am pretty sure they are using the newest version of the Pi.

 

[jmark]

Can you get me some photos of your rig outside and in?

MrShake, here are a couple of pics... A couple more are in the process of hitting Flickr... My rats nest wiring job may not help much but like I said it's a stock Kal clone minus the safe start interlock

https://flickr.com/photos/36638121@N07/sets/72157667566026566

You don't need to bypass the switch for the elements. You just take the SSR signal wires that were connected to the PID in the Kal clone and connecting them to the board on whatever controller you install SBE on.
...
So really all you need to change is remove the PIDs and install the RasPi with SBE on it and start brewing. Oh and you'll need WiFi in your brew area.

If I do that though, am I giving up the hardware PID control should I need to go to manual mode?

 

[MrShake]

MrShake, here are a couple of pics... A couple more are in the process of hitting Flickr... My rats nest wiring job may not help much but like I said it's a stock Kal clone minus the safe start interlock

https://flickr.com/photos/36638121@N07/sets/72157667566026566





If I do that though, am I giving up the hardware PID control should I need to go to manual mode?

I'll take a look this afternoon. And yea, you are right about RTD vs one wire.

And the other poster is right, you could leave the switches if you want.

 

[TechyDork]

If I do that though, am I giving up the hardware PID control should I need to go to manual mode?

Yes doing that would render the hardware PIDs useless for firing the SSR and elements as that would now all be handled by SBE.

Using SBE allows you to control your element(s) in either PID or Auto mode, meaning set a temp and it will maintain it, or also set it to Manual mode and you set the duty cycle and cycle time.

There is a couple of great threads on here about SBE and how to configure it.

****edit*** after re-reading your OP i realized you want to be able to run either your PIDs or SBE. Someone may want to clarify this, but I would think you would be able to add a small switch on the SSR's to switch their control between the PIDs and SBE similar to the HLT/BK element selector switch but on the signal wires that fire the SSR. The issue then becomes the temp probes and the need to have different types in place one for the PID and one for SBE. Maybe there is one that works for both? I recall reading somewhere about adapting RTDs to work with SBE, but I could be wrong.

 

[jmark]

That makes sense... I think there used to be a board for Brewtroller that could handle RTD probes too... Not sure if that made it into the wild or not.

 

[MrShake]

Yea, someone was working on an RTD board, but it never came to production. The One Wire probes are not too expensive and are plug and play

 

[MrShake]

So I took a quick look (ended up being a VERY busy day) and assuming you want to eliminate the PIDs completely (not have the option for both) then you are looking at simplifying quite a bit. I'll have to give more thought on the logistics of it, but the quick quick version is:

BrewTroller Outputs directly to the SSRs, the live side of the SSRs can stay as wired.

Switches are a little different beast. IF you want to be able to manually turn things on and off as well as let BrewTroller control them, then you need 3 way switches and an RGBIO board to give you the switch breakout stuff.

Does that make sense?

 

[jmark]

It does and I appreciate your time looking at this - it sounds like this is going to be quite tricky to accomplish as I *do* want to keep the existing hardware PIDs so that I can use the panel in full manual mode if absolutely necessary. I don't mind replacing the hardware PIDs with ones that are compatible with DS18B20 One Wire temp probes which would make this a fairly simple matter of adding three-way switches to handle things (although I'm still not clear on how the element switch would work). However, I spent an hour searching last night and couldn't find a compatible hardware PID - maybe I'm just not understanding the specs very well.

 

[stratslinger]

It does and I appreciate your time looking at this - it sounds like this is going to be quite tricky to accomplish as I *do* want to keep the existing hardware PIDs so that I can use the panel in full manual mode if absolutely necessary. I don't mind replacing the hardware PIDs with ones that are compatible with DS18B20 One Wire temp probes which would make this a fairly simple matter of adding three-way switches to handle things (although I'm still not clear on how the element switch would work). However, I spent an hour searching last night and couldn't find a compatible hardware PID - maybe I'm just not understanding the specs very well.

Depending on exactly what you mean by "full manual mode", it may be possible to achieve your goals with just SBE (or similar control device).

I've got a rig VERY similar to what TechyDork described. Kal Clone with a Raspberry Pi running SBE in place of a pair of PIDs, a Sainsmart array to drive my pumps, and mostly everything else as in Kal's setup (I did, however, skip out on the voltage/current meters).

Mine is a 50A setup, so I can fire both elements simultaneously. I wired both on a 3 way switch however. One leg of the 3 way switch is obviously "off". Another leg is Auto - the SBE signals are wired into these legs on my two 3-way switches. The last leg is just ON - there are a pair of pins on the Pi that provide constant 5v and 3.3v signals, and I have those fed into this leg. So, everything is normally Off. If I just want to go full blast, I have the choice of either flipping the 3-way to the On position, or flipping the 3-way to the Auto position and telling SBE to run that element at 100%.

Now that you've got me thinking about this, this is probably the easiest way I could make my rig portable - just leave it at manual control the whole way. I'd just need to rig up a different thermometer to my HLT, in place of the OneWire sensor...

 

[TechyDork]

SBE will allow you to run your elements in either PID mode or full manual mode.

To be able to run both hardware and software PIDs there are two things in my mind you need to figure out.

1. How to switch control of the SSRs between the hardware PIDs and the software PIDs.
a. I think this could easily be done by adding a three way selector switch on the control line to the SSRs

2. How to switch between the different temp probes depending on which PID you are using at the time.
a. If you wanted to you could probably have them both in place by adding an additional Tee and installing both probes. Then you could leave the hardware PIDs as they are and simply switch control of the SSRs to either the hardware or software PIDs. When you are running you would have the benefit of seeing temps on the hardware and software PIDs.

At least that all makes sense in my head.

 

[jmark]

SBE will allow you to run your elements in either PID mode or full manual mode.

To be able to run both hardware and software PIDs there are two things in my mind you need to figure out.

1. How to switch control of the SSRs between the hardware PIDs and the software PIDs.
a. I think this could easily be done by adding a three way selector switch on the control line to the SSRs

2. How to switch between the different temp probes depending on which PID you are using at the time.
a. If you wanted to you could probably have them both in place by adding an additional Tee and installing both probes. Then you could leave the hardware PIDs as they are and simply switch control of the SSRs to either the hardware or software PIDs. When you are running you would have the benefit of seeing temps on the hardware and software PIDs.

At least that all makes sense in my head.

A bit of research led me to these:

http://www.playingwithfusion.com/productview.php?pdid=25

Potentially a solution for the temp probe issue, assuming 1) just running the probe wires in parallel from the XLR connection on my control panel to the PIDs and these boards, and 2) being able to add support for RTD probes to software (obviously an open source solution would be required). May not need manual/auto switches for the probes if the above is accurate.

 

[MrShake]

It does and I appreciate your time looking at this - it sounds like this is going to be quite tricky to accomplish as I *do* want to keep the existing hardware PIDs so that I can use the panel in full manual mode if absolutely necessary. I don't mind replacing the hardware PIDs with ones that are compatible with DS18B20 One Wire temp probes which would make this a fairly simple matter of adding three-way switches to handle things (although I'm still not clear on how the element switch would work). However, I spent an hour searching last night and couldn't find a compatible hardware PID - maybe I'm just not understanding the specs very well.

You can still run your system manually with a BrewTroller... it just acts as the PID. If you really want to keep the PIDS then this becomes much more complicated.

 

[jmark]

Yeah, I don't want to lose hardware control as backup... Working in the software industry has jaded me!

 

[MrShake]

Yeah, I don't want to lose hardware control as backup... Working in the software industry has jaded me!

Just to point out the obvious.... there is software on those PIDs you know...

 

[jmark]

... there is software on those PIDs you know...

Nothing's foolproof I know.

I guess I'm chasing a "holy grail" solution that allows me to use the Kal panel as-is if/when the software solution fails. Probably overthinking things, but I like redundant systems!

 

[stratslinger]

Let's look at it from a different angle:

If you already have a PID-based Kal clone, what are you looking to gain out of adding in a software solution, be it Brewtroller, Elsinore, BCS, etc? Almost sounds like adding complexity for the sake of complexity, which is hardly ever an ideal situation.

 

[jmark]

Well, I'm interested in adding some automation abilities but having a redundant manual system as backup.

 

[frodus17]

You could use PID's with Modbus RTU, and a PLC or simple HMI to control to it..... see my build thread, I'm using a Raspberry pi runing MyScada HOME to talk to 4 PID's. They run themselves, but I can override them.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=566276

 

[BeardedBrews]

Well, I'm interested in adding some automation abilities but having a redundant manual system as backup.

I think you're going to have to decide how complex you want to make the switching between PID and rPI.

One approach might be this:
http://www.embeddeddatasystems.com/OW-RTD4W--1-Wire-Interface-for-4-Wire-RTD_p_165.html
That has the added benefit of being an all-in-one deal that could even include a relay board which would handle the switching of SSR inputs for you automatically.

You could build your own RTD -> 1-Wire boards from these instead:
https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/...rs-and-sensor-interface/MAX31865.html/tb_tab0

Those are 3-wire RTD compatible, which probably makes them a better fit.


Or, and this is probably the most sane option, just put a second set of temperature probes in your kettles. From a physical dimensions standpoint, the two sensors could fit in the same thermowell, but you'd have to do the wiring and thermal grease yourself.