Anyone oxygenated their mash with pure o2?

[Smellyglove]

I like to experiment. I just read a post where oxygen in the wort was a "brewing myth". There are LODO's and non LODO's. I'm a very simple person when it comes to trying out stuff for my own research. I overdo it at first, and if it has a noticeable effect I just believe it has an effect even at lower levels, and take it from there. I feel that's reasonable.

So, after the oxygen in the wort is a "brewing myth" I read. I really feel the urge to do a standard beer of mine, but dip the o2-wand into the wort at let it flow. Costly experiment, but I guess that should do.

A german pilsner for example?

 

[MaxStout]

Why not split the batch into two, oxygenate the crap out of one, and maybe just do some agitation of the other? Compare the two beers when done.

 

[IslandLizard]

Not sure what you try to prove:
Oxygenating wort (when pitching yeast) is good.
Oxygenating beer (once alcohol is formed) is bad. This is called oxidizing.

I use pure oxygen right before pitching yeast. I reckon to obtain 12-16 ppm of dissolved O2 in the wort that way.
With high gravity beers I may do a similar 2nd O2 infusion 12-18 hours after pitching.
Once fermentation starts, O2 and air are off limits.

 

[Dland]

I use O2 with a "stone" at the end of stainless tube. How long and how much depends on whether yeast is new or from last beer's krausen. Generally 2-4 min at .5-1.5 L/M after cooled in fermentor and before pitching. The simple medical style regulators work for low flow better than torch type.

Remember to fully sanitize whatever you use to dissipate the O2 each time, as it can harbor some critters.

Used to use the tip from Oxy/Acy torch into tube to ox wand, but to save effort moving cylinder rig around got a dedicated smaller tank, will probably last a few years. But I can also use with a portable torch rig if I need to.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm not clear what you're saying the supposed brewing myth is. Are you saying that there are brewers claiming oxygen is not needed in wort (that the need to oxygenate wort is a myth), or that pure O2 is as good as shaking (benefits of pure O2 are a myth) or that the ability to get O2 into wort is a myth? Or something else?

 

[Smellyglove]

Sorry. I was unclear. I meant oxygenate the mash. Mash! I'll edit the topic. Brainfart at my end.

Edit: Uhm, can I even edit the topic here at HBT?

Edit #2. It has been done. Infusion of o2 in the MASH is what's this is about.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Ok, so originally the thought was that you should limit oxygen in the mash. Then that was called a 'myth' with evidence that hot-side aeration makes no difference to beer (splash the mash as much as you want to). Then LoDo brewers said the idea that hot side aeration is OK is a myth, but that homebrew wort is always oxidised unless you boil mash water, limit stirring and use an O2 scavenger (metabisulfite) to prevent oxidation (a simplified summary). If you want to test if O2 has an effect on the mash, you should probably try three mashes - one standard, one with a burst of pure O2 and one using LoDo methods.

 

[Smellyglove]

Ok, so originally the thought was that you should limit oxygen in the mash. Then that was called a 'myth' with evidence that hot-side aeration makes no difference to beer (splash the mash as much as you want to). Then LoDo brewers said the idea that hot side aeration is OK is a myth, but that homebrew wort is always oxidised unless you boil mash water, limit stirring and use an O2 scavenger (metabisulfite) to prevent oxidation (a simplified summary). If you want to test if O2 has an effect on the mash, you should probably try three mashes - one standard, one with a burst of pure O2 and one using LoDo methods.

I don't want to spend the time to de-oxygenate my mash water, or aquire a mash cap. I just want to see if there's a difference between my regular procedure, and blasting it with 02. My thought is that the more o2 should have an effect. If there is, then there should be an overall positive effect if one can limit oxygen.

The thing is, I know that limiting oxygen into the mash has been known for several decades. I just want to experience it myself.

 

[schematix]

Waste of time. This type of experiment has been done many times and is why the "HSA is a myth" myth gets confirmed.

There's enough O2 already in your non-deoxygenated strike water to react with everything that it could react with with plenty to spare.

So what you're making is two worts that will be oxidized to roughly the same level.

Further, oxygen solubility isn't all that high at mash temp. Most will just bubble out into the air.

 

[mongoose33]

Waste of time. This type of experiment has been done many times and is why the "HSA is a myth" myth gets confirmed.

There's enough O2 already in your non-deoxygenated strike water to react with everything that it could react with with plenty to spare.

So what you're making is two worts that will be oxidized to roughly the same level.

Further, oxygen solubility isn't all that high at mash temp. Most will just bubble out into the air.

I'm going to disagree that HSA is a myth. It's not. If you've never tasted the difference between LODO mashed wort and regular, oxidized wort...well, there's a difference. Done well, it can be profound.

But you have to go whole hog to get it, which most homebrewers are either ill-equipped to do, or lack the time, or don't care enough. Fair enough.

That includes de-oxygenating your strike water (I do it by boiling then cooling to strike temp), underletting the mash, crushing just before dough-in, crushing coarsely so as to have larger particles which expose less surface area to oxidation, using a mash cap, being very careful stirring so as not to create splashing, purging the lines, using Campden tablets as an oxygen scavengers, care in lautering off to the BK, and use of a lauter cap in the BK.

Yeah....it's not easy to do it. I've revamped my entire brewspace to accommodate LODO brewing, so I could test it and see what it's all about. That's everything from a new mill and motor to SS counterflow chiller to...well, a lot of stuff. Electric brewing, RIMS system for temp control...

I think you're correct in that there's not likely to be much difference between "normal" and "oxygenated" because the "normal" already is pretty oxygenated to begin with.

 

[schematix]

I'm going to disagree that HSA is a myth. It's not. If you've never tasted the difference between LODO mashed wort and regular, oxidized wort...well, there's a difference. Done well, it can be profound.

But you have to go whole hog to get it, which most homebrewers are either ill-equipped to do, or lack the time, or don't care enough. Fair enough.

That includes de-oxygenating your strike water (I do it by boiling then cooling to strike temp), underletting the mash, crushing just before dough-in, crushing coarsely so as to have larger particles which expose less surface area to oxidation, using a mash cap, being very careful stirring so as not to create splashing, purging the lines, using Campden tablets as an oxygen scavengers, care in lautering off to the BK, and use of a lauter cap in the BK.

Yeah....it's not easy to do it. I've revamped my entire brewspace to accommodate LODO brewing, so I could test it and see what it's all about. That's everything from a new mill and motor to SS counterflow chiller to...well, a lot of stuff. Electric brewing, RIMS system for temp control...

I think you're correct in that there's not likely to be much difference between "normal" and "oxygenated" because the "normal" already is pretty oxygenated to begin with.

I said that “HSA is a myth” is a myth...

Preaching to the choir here.

I could tell from attempt #1 there was something so different occurring that it hasn’t crossed my mind to go back.

 

[MaaZeus]

I am in no shape or form an expert but to me using liquid oxygen is like swatting a fly with a frying pan, way overkill. Yeast is a relatively simple organism, a damn microbe, not a human or animal. Its oxygen requirements should be very, very tiny. Shaking and stirring should be enough.

*Edit* unless you are a comercial macrobrewer dealing with hundreds or even thousands of liters of wort, then I could see liquid O2 being beneficial. In their cases simply closing the lid and shaking the crap out of it is not exactly possible.

 

[IslandLizard]

Some fantastic phrasing there:

and is why the "HSA is a myth" myth gets confirmed.

I had to read that a few times to get to the depth of it.

I'm going to disagree that HSA is a myth.

Understandably! To the casual reader that may have been the meaning...

I said that “HSA is a myth” is a myth...

Since it came from you, I couldn't accept HSA being a simple myth.

 

[mongoose33]

I am in no shape or form an expert but to me using liquid oxygen is like swatting a fly with a frying pan, way overkill. Yeast is a relatively simple organism, a damn microbe, not a human or animal. Its oxygen requirements should be very, very tiny. Shaking and stirring should be enough.

*Edit* unless you are a comercial macrobrewer dealing with hundreds or even thousands of liters of wort, then I could see liquid O2 being beneficial. In their cases simply closing the lid and shaking the crap out of it is not exactly possible.

We're going to have to disagree on this. A yeast cell, though tiny, is no less an organism that thrives on sufficient oxygen. Since there end up being hundreds of billions of them in fermenting beer, their tininess isn't really the issue--it's the multitude of such cells.

In White and Zainasheff's book "Yeast" they recommend a level of dissolved oxygen of 10 ppm. Shaking vigorously won't get more than 8 ppm, and that's with some pretty aggressive shaking and decent headspace. That's the high end, and few brewers are reaching that just by shaking.

Too little oxygen can result in stressed yeast, poor successive generations if yeast is reused, slow-to-take-off fermentations, and other undesirable consequences.

There's really no good argument to be made for not oxygenating to optimal levels, unless one is either lazy, has no time, or can't/won't pay for the necessary equipment and consumables.

The exception that appears to be the case here is dried yeast; at least two dried yeast manufacturers are saying it's unnecessary to oxygenate with dry yeast as it already is supposedly able to deal with that. It's difficult for me to believe this is optimal, but they say it. I'm going to brew this weekend using dried yeast, and it will be difficult not to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. I haven't yet decided how I want to proceed on that.

*********

Can not oxygenating produce beer? Sure. Good or even great beer? That depends. I want my yeast to take off as fast as possible, and outcompete any other microbiological nasties that may have made it into the wort. Intentionally using a process that limits that ability doesn't strike me as the best path to great beer.

 

[mongoose33]

I said that “HSA is a myth” is a myth...

Preaching to the choir here.

I could tell from attempt #1 there was something so different occurring that it hasn’t crossed my mind to go back.

Yeah, I couldn't figure out why you were saying it, given you are a member of the lodo site.

I'd still disagree with you that "HSA is a myth" is a myth. No, people believe that, which makes that belief...not a myth. It's real.

So there!

 

[IslandLizard]

to me using liquid oxygen is like swatting a fly with a frying pan

I could see liquid O2 being beneficial

No one is using liquid oxygen here. It's compressed oxygen gas in a tank. We dispense it through a porous stainless steel aeration stone on a hollow wand on the bottom of the fermenter. It creates millions of tiny bubbles that dissolve faster and give better Dissolved Oxygen (DO) levels than any other method. Depending on the flow rate, 1-4 minutes is plenty. I also use it in the onset of my starters, they take off much faster and finish faster.

 

[schematix]

Yeah, I couldn't figure out why you were saying it, given you are a member of the lodo site.

I'd still disagree with you that "HSA is a myth" is a myth. No, people believe that, which makes that belief...not a myth. It's real.

So there!

I wasn’t clear with my wording. Sorry for the confusion. This thread could have been derailed much quicker if I had phrased my sentiments differently.

“HSA is a myth” is a belief, and one that is incorrect.

 

[Rev2010]

at least two dried yeast manufacturers are saying it's unnecessary to oxygenate with dry yeast as it already is supposedly able to deal with that. It's difficult for me to believe this is optimal, but they say it. I'm going to brew this weekend using dried yeast, and it will be difficult not to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. I haven't yet decided how I want to proceed on that.

I have always aerated with an O2 wand even with dried yeast then I read this information as well. My last beer I did an Imperial Spicy Pumpkin Stout (done with habanero's). For the first time I didn't aerate the yeast. I did rehydrate however and will continue doing so. I used two packs of Nottingham. The fermentation was insane! The start time was faster than I've ever had and within I think it was either the second or third full day that krausen starting coming out of the airlock and just kept coming and coming. Finally I decided one evening before going to bed to open the fermenter and skim the top krausen. That stopped the foaming out the airlock (should've used the blowoff elbow for my brew bucket but didn't expect it).

Anyhow, long story short. The beer tastes great. Now, I haven't ever made this one before so I don't have a direct comparison, but I do make a Coconut Porter that has a fairly similar malt bill and I can't say I detect any difference in taste from having not oxygenated and in regard to fermentation it seemed to me to start quicker and have a more healthy vigorous fermentation which is what is actually said to be the benefit for not oxygenating dry yeast, at least from what I recall reading. Of course, it could've simply been the high cell count of two packs of dry yeast!

Gonna stick to not aerating dry going forward (one less step to do) unless I come across some sort of negative difference down the line.


Rev.

 

[MaaZeus]

No one is using liquid oxygen here. It's compressed oxygen gas in a tank. We dispense it through a porous stainless steel aeration stone on a hollow wand on the bottom of the fermenter. It creates millions of tiny bubbles that dissolve faster and give better Dissolved Oxygen (DO) levels than any other method. Depending on the flow rate, 1-4 minutes is plenty. I also use it in the onset of my starters, they take off much faster and finish faster.

Yeah sorry about that. I'm used to speaking about compressed gas in canisters as liquids even though that is not true for all gasses.

 

[4of7]

I like to experiment. I just read a post where oxygen in the wort was a "brewing myth". There are LODO's and non LODO's. I'm a very simple person when it comes to trying out stuff for my own research. I overdo it at first, and if it has a noticeable effect I just believe it has an effect even at lower levels, and take it from there. I feel that's reasonable.

So, after the oxygen in the wort is a "brewing myth" I read. I really feel the urge to do a standard beer of mine, but dip the o2-wand into the wort at let it flow. Costly experiment, but I guess that should do.

A german pilsner for example?

I say go for it. yes it will be costly to do the same brew tweaking one item..

 

[HTH1975]

Regarding oxygenating wort, traditionally UK breweries just pump wort into the FV, so aeration is minimal. This is likely a large part of the ester profile with British beers.