All grain help

[richard_langford]

So I've done a few dry malt extract beers, come out really nice, thought I'd try a Guinness all grain from my brew shop, first time I'd used my set up only a 5 gal, on the instructions sent says I should yield 11.2 litres of liquor from the mash, only I got to 10 litres and it was still a lovely deep brown colour so I kept sparging until it ran abit lighter at around 20 litres, topped upto 24 litres then boiled it, was this the correct method? OG on the instructions should of been 10:42 I got 10:32 was this ok?? I really got stuck at this point as I wasn't fully sure of the process, the fermenter has been bubbling really well so I'll take it I've made something drinkable!!

 

[CBMbrewer]

Congrats! You brewed an all grain batch. Your efficiency wasn't that great and you will get a very sessionable ale. You could boil, cool and add some dme to boast the gravity, but I wouldn't mess with it at this point.

 

[psubrewer]

That's awfully low. I think you might want to add 1.5 lbs of dme to up the gravity a bit.

Boil it in a few quarts before adding directly to your fermenter, ideally while fermentation is still active.

You'll be fine of you do nothing also, it will still be beer!

 

[richard_langford]

I didn't know I could add anything, was my process correct or should I have just collected the 11.2 litres? Then what? Add water?!? Could of been that I opened my valve on the mash too quick I was done in 20/30 mins

 

[jeremy0209]

I wouldn't touch it now that it's fermenting. Ferment it out, package it up, and enjoy it. I would calculate my efficiency and formulate my next recipe based on that. Use software to help (Beersmith, Brewmate, Qbrew, etc.) or, at the very least, track your efficiencies with a spreadsheet so, in 5 or 6 batches, you can take an accurate average. It will take a few batches until you figure out how efficient your system is....you can dial it in with each successive recipe. Just make sure you do everything the same every time (grain crush, water / grain ratio, intensity of the biol, etc.). There's nothing worse than trying to hit a moving target.

 

[psubrewer]

I didn't know I could add anything, was my process correct or should I have just collected the 11.2 litres? Then what? Add water?!? Could of been that I opened my valve on the mash too quick I was done in 20/30 mins

What volume ended up in your fermented? You should have boiled your collected wort down to the volume indicated in the recipe, 5 gallons.

20 mins is too short, you probably converted most of the starches assuming your mash temp was correct but you really want to go 45 to 60 minutes.

 

[psubrewer]

Also, are you sure your hydro sample was correct? Hot wort will make a hydrometer read on the low side, well mine at least.

 

[richard_langford]

Ok so the mash was 1 h 30m then sparged it collected 15 litres of dark liquid and 5 litres of lighter liquid, over half hour, boiled that and topped up the fermenter to 5 gal should I of just collected 11.2 litres as it says on the instructions and then boil that? How would I get 5 gallon at the end?

 

[richard_langford]

The temperature when entering the fermenter was 30*c so wasn't hot, we're having abit of a heat wave in the uk at the moment so it's proving difficult to get it lower!

 

[MonsterBrew]

What really will help figure everything out is what batch size what the recipe designed for? How many lbs (or kilos) of grain did you use? This will help determine if you collected too much or not enough liquid (wort).

 

[mcspanner]

Hmmm. If your sample was 30°c the correction calculator I use states that if your hydrometer is calibrated at 20°c that's an og of 1.034 or 1.036 if calibrated to 15°c.

Did you take a pre-boil gravity too or just a post chill, pre pitching sample. It might be interesting to see what the mash efficiency was.

Did the recipe pack give you a grain bill? I.e the weights of each grain in the recipe?

To try to collect the original 11.2 litres how many litres of water did you add to the tun before adding your grains? Also What temp was a) your water, b) the mashed grains at?

Some of this detail will help us work out why the starting gravity was a bit lower than expected.

Also where are you in the UK?

 

[richard_langford]

Hmmm. If your sample was 30°c the correction calculator I use states that if your hydrometer is calibrated at 20°c that's an og of 1.034 or 1.036 if calibrated to 15°c.

Did you take a pre-boil gravity too or just a post chill, pre pitching sample. It might be interesting to see what the mash efficiency was.

Did the recipe pack give you a grain bill? I.e the weights of each grain in the recipe?

To try to collect the original 11.2 litres how many litres of water did you add to the tun before adding your grains? Also What temp was a) your water, b) the mashed grains at?

Some of this detail will help us work out why the starting gravity was a bit lower than expected.

Also where are you in the UK?

I didn't realise the hydrometer as calibrated to 20*c?! I only took a reading once in the fermenter ill attach a picture of the instructions about the grain etc
I added around 15 litres of water to the grains my mash cool box is 26 litre and it was a few inches from the top! I didn't really notice the amount of sparge water I used I will next time! I just added water as I put the grain in mixed as I went, the temp of sparge water was 77*c mash temp was 66*c for 1 h 30m

 

[richard_langford]

 

[Mdsutton]

Not being an expert (I have not done an all-grain yet,) but having read through enough posts. I believe you drained the wort from the grain to quickly, and possibly though I have not seen anyone else ask about it, did you batch sparge or fly? Did you stir the grain after adding the sparge water? Did you let this sit for about 15 minutes?

Again, I am NO expert, just things I have seen others talk about on here.

Oh it will still be beer just very low ABV.
Regards,
Martin

 

[richard_langford]

Thanks Martin, yeah I thought that as I did it, I sparged and emptied straight away just restricted the flow out I had no real way of telling if I was doing the right thing I've got a 30 litre boiler above my mash, I've made my own sparge arm into my mash so I fly sparge, just think ill have to slow the process down!

 

[mcspanner]

OK so let's just drill down to clarify(forgive me if I seem to be asking the same questions I just want to be absolutely clear of what was going on)

You said your mash was 66°c for 90 minutes. How did you achieve that 66°, what temp was the strike water ie. the 15l, into which you added the grain at the start of the mash. How confident are you in the accuracy of your thermometer? I've used some meat thermometers that turned out to be out by about 7°c when I checked them against a calibrated probe.

I know you said you didn't measure the volume of sparge water but based on the size of your brew kettle how much wort would you estimate you had at the start of the boil? Also what was the volume that went into your fermenter.

My main suspicion is that the solution lies in the mash temp/ pre boil volume.

 

[richard_langford]

OK so let's just drill down to clarify(forgive me if I seem to be asking the same questions I just want to be absolutely clear of what was going on)

You said your mash was 66°c for 90 minutes. How did you achieve that 66°, what temp was the strike water ie. the 15l, into which you added the grain at the start of the mash. How confident are you in the accuracy of your thermometer? I've used some meat thermometers that turned out to be out by about 7°c when I checked them against a calibrated probe.

I know you said you didn't measure the volume of sparge water but based on the size of your brew kettle how much wort would you estimate you had at the start of the boil? Also what was the volume that went into your fermenter.

My main suspicion is that the solution lies in the mash temp/ pre boil volume.

My strike water was boiled and left to cool down to 77*c then added to the grains, I bought a digital probe thermometer and I have a youngs stick thermometer which I compared before I started brewing and are within 1*c of each other,

I emptied the mash into a fermenter tub so I could see the amount I got 20 litres into my boiler and after the boil around 18 litres which I added water to make up the 5 gal, would that have diluted the wort?

 

[mcspanner]

My strike water was boiled and left to cool down to 77*c then added to the grains, I bought a digital probe thermometer and I have a youngs stick thermometer which I compared before I started brewing and are within 1*c of each other,

I emptied the mash into a fermenter tub so I could see the amount I got 20 litres into my boiler and after the boil around 18 litres which I added water to make up the 5 gal, would that have diluted the wort?

OK I think there are a number of improvements that you can make.

1 strike water temp is not the same as sparge temp. Assuming you have about 4.5kg of grain at 20°c the strike water needs to be around 73°c when you dough in ( mix the grain into the 15l of water) to achieve a mash of 66°c.
2. Mash time. The initial infusion needs to rest at that temperature for 90 minutes before you add the sparge water to allow for the full sugar conversion to take place before sparging ( rinsing the remaining sugars off the grains in effect). As you are using 77°c water to sparge you are higher than the temperature at which the enzymes will convert the grain starches into ferment able sugars.
3. Water volumes. You need to start the boil with about 30 -32 ltrs to allow for evaporation and losses due to hop absorption during the boil. This will give you 23l of wort which should not require topping up and diluting.

As an all grain beginner you might want to try the slightly simpler batch sparging method. It can take a while to get a fly sparge dialled in and although this is heavily debated I am in the camp that believes that there are only marginal benefits to fly sparging which are offset by the complexity. I batch sparge and regularly hit 80-85% efficiency and still consider myself a very novice brewer.

I hope this helps get you closer to your target og on future brews.

 

[richard_langford]

OK I think there are a number of improvements that you can make.

1 strike water temp is not the same as sparge temp. Assuming you have about 4.5kg of grain at 20°c the strike water needs to be around 73°c when you dough in ( mix the grain into the 15l of water) to achieve a mash of 66°c.
2. Mash time. The initial infusion needs to rest at that temperature for 90 minutes before you add the sparge water to allow for the full sugar conversion to take place before sparging ( rinsing the remaining sugars off the grains in effect). As you are using 77°c water to sparge you are higher than the temperature at which the enzymes will convert the grain starches into ferment able sugars.
3. Water volumes. You need to start the boil with about 30 -32 ltrs to allow for evaporation and losses due to hop absorption during the boil. This will give you 23l of wort which should not require topping up and diluting.

As an all grain beginner you might want to try the slightly simpler batch sparging method. It can take a while to get a fly sparge dialled in and although this is heavily debated I am in the camp that believes that there are only marginal benefits to fly sparging which are offset by the complexity. I batch sparge and regularly hit 80-85% efficiency and still consider myself a very novice brewer.

I hope this helps get you closer to your target og on future brews.

Ok sounds like a plan, but how would I archive the 30 litres for the boil? Just keep adding sparge water to the mash waiting 20 mins then draining? How can I gauge I'm getting the correct conversion as I go? Would I be right in saying take a hydro reading as I go? My mash tun is 26litre my boiler is a brewferm 27 litre so I'm going to struggle to collect the 30 litre!? Like you said keep a closer eye on the temps, I think my Chinese digital thermometer off eBay may not be as accurate as I'd like ill invest in a better one I think to be absolutely sure!

 

[mcspanner]

Ok sounds like a plan, but how would I archive the 30 litres for the boil? Just keep adding sparge water to the mash waiting 20 mins then draining? How can I gauge I'm getting the correct conversion as I go? Would I be right in saying take a hydro reading as I go? My mash tun is 26litre my boiler is a brewferm 27 litre so I'm going to struggle to collect the 30 litre!? Like you said keep a closer eye on the temps, I think my Chinese digital thermometer off eBay may not be as accurate as I'd like ill invest in a better one I think to be absolutely sure!

The kit instructions suggest treating 32.8 l to achieve the correct amount of wort, but some of those ltrs will get lost in grain absorption, mash tun dead space and kettle losses. You don't need to worry about getting it all the tun as you will only have roughly 15L at a time in there as you will collect your first runnings (I.e. the wort from mashing for 90 minutes before you start to sparge the grains ( by either method)

If you want to test that conversion has happened then the iodine test is probably easiest ( I've never actually used iodine though as I'm confident that if I hit my temps on the mash and leave it for 60-90 minutes conversion happens, also the wort tastes really sweet and not starchy). The extra hydrometer sample that is useful is the pre boil one so that you an split overall efficiency into mash and boil efficiencies later.

The boiler volume is more of an issue, what I used to do was boil any ltr or so surplus in a stock pot on my stove until it had halved in volume. At the end of my boil if I needed to top up my fermenter I used the concentrated wort to top up. It's not ideal but effectively you are making an unhopped liquid malt extract so you aren't diluting your gravity when you need to top up.

What I would recommend is seeing if you can get on one of these http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Mashing_Course.html#.UftfnMu9KSM if not watch as much mashing videos on Youtube as possible. There's loads of great stuff out there that makes more sense watching than trying to visualise what I am saying here!

Cheers Tim

 

[richard_langford]

The kit instructions suggest treating 32.8 l to achieve the correct amount of wort, but some of those ltrs will get lost in grain absorption, mash tun dead space and kettle losses. You don't need to worry about getting it all the tun as you will only have roughly 15L at a time in there as you will collect your first runnings (I.e. the wort from mashing for 90 minutes before you start to sparge the grains ( by either method)

If you want to test that conversion has happened then the iodine test is probably easiest ( I've never actually used iodine though as I'm confident that if I hit my temps on the mash and leave it for 60-90 minutes conversion happens, also the wort tastes really sweet and not starchy). The extra hydrometer sample that is useful is the pre boil one so that you an split overall efficiency into mash and boil efficiencies later.

The boiler volume is more of an issue, what I used to do was boil any ltr or so surplus in a stock pot on my stove until it had halved in volume. At the end of my boil if I needed to top up my fermenter I used the concentrated wort to top up. It's not ideal but effectively you are making an unhopped liquid malt extract so you aren't diluting your gravity when you need to top up.

What I would recommend is seeing if you can get on one of these http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Mashing_Course.html#.UftfnMu9KSM if not watch as much mashing videos on Youtube as possible. There's loads of great stuff out there that makes more sense watching than trying to visualise what I am saying here!

Cheers Tim

Cheers Tim I appreciate the advice, I've watched a lot on you tube already there is a lot of good videos ill keep watching them

So is it possible I could have reached my 10:42 goal with my mash but having added just water to the fermenter after the boil diluting it down?

 

[mcspanner]

No worries, if you're local you can always drop by for brew day and see what i do.
Yes absolutely, but not if your mash efficiency was very low to start with. Assuming the recipe was based on a default efficiency of 70% if you'd nailed your mash and achieved high 70's low 80's then you would have had " gravity to spare" so to speak so could have added water to top up and still ended up around the predicted o.g.

If you haven't checked out Terpsichorean kid's videos, they're great for mash details. I learnt a lot from watching those, beer geek nation, brewing tv and now chop and brew (chip walton's new channel).

 

[richard_langford]

I'll look into them, I'm thinking of doing the September mash course! Where do you live? I'm from stourbridge in the West Midlands

 

[mcspanner]

I'll look into them, I'm thinking of doing the September mash course! Where do you live? I'm from stourbridge in the West Midlands

I'm in Warrington, Cheshire, so not quite round the corner, but not a million miles away either.

Let me know how the stout turns out!

 

[richard_langford]

Thought I'd let you all know how my stout turned out... I took a final gravity reading and it read 10:13 as the instructions said so somehow I hit the target! Opened my first bottle just and it actually tastes good!