all grain brews keep coming out with the same bitter taste...

[fearwig]

For most beers you don't want any alkalinity, and for those you do want some alkalinity it's a modest amount. The starting water pH has very little affect in these cases.

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) any more than you want a mash pH over 7, so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic, but it is self-limiting)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away). Optimizing pH has a positive effect on sugar extraction too but I think efficiency is pretty unimportant at homebrew scales as long as you get it consistent.

 

[afr0byte]

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) or a mash pH over 7 (!), so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making your session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away).

In these case of water treatment, alkalinity doesn't mean > 7! You're apparently the one oversimplifying things. The alkalinity number you're going to see in your water report is a measurement taken by titrating down to either 4.3 or 4.5 (4.3 is most accurate, as you theoretically would have just about no bicarbonate left in your water, but 4.5 is easier to see the change as you're titrating). Your water's alkalinity is primarily water determines the mash pH, not your water's pH!

Most beers don't need any alkalinity (This essentially means no bicarbonate in most residential water, as below a pH of roughly 8.3 you should have almost not carbonate alkalinity in your water.). In fact, most beers need an addition of acid to get down to the ideal range of 5.3-5.5 mash pH (room temperature measurement). Given a very low starting alkalinity, the water pH is largely irrelevant because the difference in the amount of acid needed is based almost entirely on the grist's acidity and the hardness of the water (calcium reacts with malt phosphates to release h+ ions, lowering the pH).

Also, a larger grain bill, assuming the same water to grain ratio, IS NOT MORE ACIDIC. Sure, the pH of a mash with water of alkalinity 300 is going to be lower if you use more grain for a given amount of water, but that has nothing to do with the total weight of the grist. It's all about the concentrations.

 

[fearwig]

Also, a larger grain bill, assuming the same water to grain ratio, IS NOT MORE ACIDIC. Sure, the pH of a mash with water of alkalinity 300 is going to be lower if you use more grain for a given amount of water, but that has nothing to do with the total weight of the grist. It's all about the concentrations.

It has a lower pH. It is more acidic. I don't know what definition of "acidic" you are working with (apparently related to this unique definition of "alkalinity"), but that's obviously important to remember if you are going to make any kind of adjustment based on recipe to reach a target mash pH (which is the whole point).

In fact, most beers need an addition of acid to get down to the ideal range of 5.3-5.5 mash pH (room temperature measurement). Given a very low starting alkalinity, the water pH is largely irrelevant because the difference in the amount of acid needed is based almost entirely on the grist's acidity and the hardness of the water (calcium reacts with malt phosphates to release h+ ions, lowering the pH).

This is exactly what I have been saying, except that you added "the water pH is largely irrelevant" (which is refuted by everything else you said). Obviously it's "irrelevant" if you are adjusting every water sample to precise standards and ignoring the original water, but the OP and many others aren't adjusting their water, and their water needs it. If the original pH is "irrelevant" it's only because it's almost always slightly too high (in OP's case it was likely abnormally high, hence the tanins).

 

[afr0byte]

It has a lower pH. It is more acidic. I don't know what definition of "acidic" you are working with (apparently related to this unique definition of "alkalinity"), but that's obviously important to remember if you are going to make any kind of adjustment based on recipe to reach a target mash pH (which is the whole point).

It would only have a lower pH if you lowered the water to grain ratio (i.e. If you went with 1 qt/lb instead of 1.5qts/lb). A pH measurement is, after all, a measurement of the hydronium ion concentration of a solution. Also, it's not my definition of alkalinity. It's in, for example, the new Water book, which is an entire book on brewing water.

 

[afr0byte]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity#Theoretical_treatment_of_alkalinity

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) any more than you want a mash pH over 7, so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic, but it is self-limiting)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away). Optimizing pH has a positive effect on sugar extraction too but I think efficiency is pretty unimportant at homebrew scales as long as you get it consistent.

As was mentioned, alkalinity doesn't mean a pH > 7. You definitely do want your sparge water to be acidified, as tannin extraction becomes an issue if the sparge runnings are > 6.

You can take water with a high pH, but with 0 bicarbonate/alkalinity and easily maintain a sparge pH <6.

 

[Yooper]

This is exactly what I have been saying, except that you added "the water pH is largely irrelevant" (which is refuted by everything else you said). Obviously it's "irrelevant" if you are adjusting every water sample to precise standards and ignoring the original water, but the OP and many others aren't adjusting their water, and their water needs it. If the original pH is "irrelevant" it's only because it's almost always slightly too high (in OP's case it was likely abnormally high, hence the tanins).

I'll say it too.

The water pH is largely irrelevent.

 

[fearwig]

It would only have a lower pH if you lowered the water to grain ratio (i.e. If you went with 1 qt/lb instead of 1.5qts/lb). A pH measurement is, after all, a measurement of the hydronium ion concentration of a solution. Also, it's not my definition of alkalinity. It's in, for example, the new Water book, which is an entire book on brewing water.

That's a good point that you're not going to use same mash volume with a higher on grist weight, I didn't account for that. I should have stated it was "grist to water ratio", or similar, not weight.

I know it's not your language, I'm no chemist--I used alkalinity to refer to high pH. The OP needed to acidify his water. I recommended that. Presumably he doesn't have a water report, but he does have a pH meter.

(above is rife with edits, sorry)

 

[fearwig]

I'll say it too.

The water pH is largely irrelevent.

If you have already adjusted it, sure. I have been suggesting acidifying water the whole thread. *groan* *point missed, gone, dead* *towel*

 

[afr0byte]

I know it's not your language, but combining the definition of alkalinity used in a water report with the actual meaning of alkalinity is pretty bad for communication, they are different. Was silly of me to misunderstand you, though.

That's the actual scientific, non-layman, definition of alkalinity. It's what matters most in a water report with regards to targeting an appropriate mash pH. I'm not going to apologize for that.

 

[fearwig]

That's the actual scientific, non-layman, definition of alkalinity. It's what matters most in a water report with regards to targeting an appropriate mash pH. I'm not going to apologize for that.

Heh yeah, I re-edited that as you were quoting me. I fail, you're right.

You obviously came in here with the better information, and I wouldn't pretend otherwise, but I don't think the OP and people like him needed to be bombarded with chemistry so much as given some tips for the things that affect final mash pH (including strike water chemistry--whether you think specifically pH is "largely irrelevant" or not it's what most people can measure, and it is at the very least a good indication of what mash pH is going to look like unless your hardness is abnormally low).

That's the last time I put something in bullet form, once you make something that is phrased too authoritatively and is not "TLDR" everyone is going to find time to pick at it that they didn't have to respond to the OP.

 

[Yooper]

If you have already adjusted it, sure. I have been suggesting acidifying water the whole thread. *groan* *point missed, gone, dead* *towel*

No, not if you have (or haven't) adjusted it.

Alkalinity is crucial. pH is not. A water pH of 9 doesn't mean that the mash pH will be too high. It just doesn't. It has to do with the buffering capacity (the alkalinity) and nothing to do with the pH.

 

[fearwig]

No, not if you have (or haven't) adjusted it.

Alkalinity is crucial. pH is not. A water pH of 9 doesn't mean that the mash pH will be too high. It just doesn't. It has to do with the buffering capacity (the alkalinity) and nothing to do with the pH.

Yeah, I see I was off base, of course you're right. You can't measure alkalinity with strips or a $12 handheld meter, though, and wild pH is at least an indicator of what your problem might be--a good place to start, definitely not totally irrelevant, just not the end-all because it doesn't factor in buffering capacity. I mean the alkalinity is about how much acid you need to move that pH down to X level--so if you have pH 9 and the same buffering capacity as a pH 8 solution you need more acid (or else you'd have a higher pH end solution).

I can see why you'd wait and just make adjustments in the mash given that information if you don't have a water report, but I still wonder whether that doesn't mean you're doing half or more of your mash at the wrong pH. Maybe that doesn't matter if tannin extraction is mostly happening in sparge, I don't know.

I'd also suggest that people whose water has very little alkalinity probably aren't suffering from high mash pH to begin with because then their grist would be enough to bring it to an acceptable range (or close enough that they wouldn't be retching at their beer) if there isn't much buffering capacity. Right?

 

[afr0byte]

Yeah, I see I was off base, of course you're right. You can't measure alkalinity with strips or a $12 handheld meter, though, and wild pH is at least an indicator of what your problem might be--a good place to start, definitely not totally irrelevant, just not the end-all because it doesn't factor in buffering capacity. I mean the alkalinity is about how much acid you need to move that pH down to X level--so if you have pH 9 and the same buffering capacity as a pH 8 solution you need more acid (or else you'd have a higher pH end solution).

I can see why you'd wait and just make adjustments in the mash given that information if you don't have a water report, but I still wonder whether that doesn't mean you're doing half or more of your mash at the wrong pH. Maybe that doesn't matter if tannin extraction is mostly happening in sparge, I don't know.

I'd also suggest that people whose water has very little alkalinity probably aren't suffering from high mash pH to begin with because then their grist would be enough to bring it to an acceptable range (or close enough that they wouldn't be retching at their beer) if there isn't much buffering capacity. Right?

Those with low alkalinity could still have higher than optimal pH, but yeah they probably won't have tannin issues.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

deleted

 

[cank]

Lovin the conversation.
To the OP, how did that ph meter work out? I have some test strips that I used for a small sample mash and they read about 5 so I added a sprinkle of baking soda and it rose to about 5.5. Sounds like most people never have to increase their ph, so ??? I probably need a meter and to send a water sample in. I got a report from the state but they have samples from 5 different water treatment plants in town and not sure yet which one is mine.

Do people experience differences in their water at different times of the year?

I don't know if this inadvertently dropped out, but if you know you have chlorine or chloramines in your water you do want to use 1/4 Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water (or use a pinch of potassium metabisulphite). Stir well. Just boiling alone will not drive of chloramines in reasonable time. It's an entirely different issue than tannin extraction but can ruin your beer just as much or worse if left untreated.

This could be part of my problem. I never have treated for chlorine and my latest city report has Chlorine levels ranging from .58-1.98 ppm. However in my first 3 AG batches I did not have this taste.

Still scratching my head but I feel like I have a direction to go in.

 

[G2G]

Hi, I'll still report back once this batch is done to see if it all worked out but I used the PH meter and citric acid on this last batch for the first time. I checked the strike water, sparge water, and mash at various times and adjusted with the acid. Right at dough in, then 10-15 mins in I had it to 5.2, then towards the end with 8 mins left it was at 5.3, and final wort before boil was 5.4 (after sparging). I'll be honest I ran into my temperature going down from stirring in the citric acid and had to add some boiling water to get it back up but it was the first time I've done this and figure I'll get more a of a system down moving fwd. Everything else went smooth and it's fermenting now. We'll see. Also, I'm still waiting on water sample to see if I'm going to scrap the tap water completely or if it's useable but wanted to test this in the meantime. I got another week on fermentation and will post again.

 

[G2G]

Sorry, and I still used the campden tablets but no "5.2 stabilizer" this time.

 

[Kiknjville]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

 

[G2G]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

Kiknjville,
Yup, that's it. Sounds like the same experience I've had. I will def let you know how it turns out.

 

[hotspurdotus]

Lovin the conversation.
To the OP, how did that ph meter work out? I have some test strips that I used for a small sample mash and they read about 5 so I added a sprinkle of baking soda and it rose to about 5.5. Sounds like most people never have to increase their ph, so ??? I probably need a meter and to send a water sample in. I got a report from the state but they have samples from 5 different water treatment plants in town and not sure yet which one is mine.

Do people experience differences in their water at different times of the year?

Mineral levels in city water can vary quite a bit throughout the year. Many municipalities will pull from multiple sources with different profiles , such as a river and a reservoir.

This could be part of my problem. I never have treated for chlorine and my latest city report has Chlorine levels ranging from .58-1.98 ppm. However in my first 3 AG batches I did not have this taste.

Still scratching my head but I feel like I have a direction to go in.

There are lots of reasons why may not have noticed chlorine in your earlier batches. The Chlorine level might have been much lower (that was a big range you quoted), or the beer style could have masked the taste.

I tackled my water issues with an RO system, but I know that's not possible for every brewer. The important thing is that now you're thinking about your water and how it affects your beer. I'm sure you're be brewing better batches very soon!



Sent from my EVO using Home Brew mobile app

 

[G2G]

Final Update for this Post... Everyone was right, it's my water and my mash PH was too high. By using the citric acid to lower the mash PH the beer came out great. I did a cream ale, mostly because it's a recipe I tried before that came out with the terrible bitter taste so I wanted to test it. Very happy to report no bitter taste in this one. It was definitely my water, which was the consensus of the responses to my OP. It makes perfect sense after the fact of course. I think I've said it a couple times but I wish I had posted way sooner. Pre-post - frustration and bitter beer. Post-post - It looks like a meth lab with all the chemicals and meters and finally!... much better beer.

I also got my Wards lab report back (Info posted below) and after reading Yooper's "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer" post that is linked in this post I ordered some Calcium Chloride and Gypsum and am going to use RO water on my next batch to see how it comes out. I'm trying to familiarize myself with the Bru'n Water spreadsheet as well.

A sincere Thank you to everyone who replied to this post and messaged and helped me out. New year, new knowledge, new (non-bitter) beers! Cheers!

*Sidenote - Not that there's not a ton of veteran brewers way more experienced than me on here that are very willing to help out and answer questions, as proven by this post, but if anybody newer comes across this and has any questions I'd be happy to answer anything I can based on my experience. For example, when I started I had no idea even what the abbreviations meant (LHBS, SG, LME, etc.) and I was probably too embarrassed to ask anybody. Just sayin'.

Here is what Ward lab had to say about my city's water if anybody cares (or you live in St. Pete and want to save $30).

St. Petersburg, FL 33713:
pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids 262
Electrical Conductivity 0.44
Cations/Anions 4.3/4.5

in ppm:
Sodium 24
Potassium <1
Calcium 55
Magnesium 5
Total Hardness (CaCO3) 158
Nitrate (NO3-N) 0.2
Sulfate (SO4-S) 16
Chloride 31
Carbonate 6
Bicarbonate 143
Total Alkalinity 127
Total Phosphorus 0.02
Total Iron <0.01


Thanks!

 

[stewart194]

Glad you figured this out. One thing to consider also, is that an RO water system can't filter out Chloromines. It can take care of the Chlorine, but not Chloromines. Chloromines are a combination of Ammonia and Chlorine. Our entire state has started using Chloromines because our water is so polluted that Chlorine alone can't kill everything anymore.

I had similar issues when I first started brewing and finally figured this out. Every beer had an off flavor to it, no matter what I tried. I was using RO water and still do, but I learned that it takes Campden tablets to get rid of that nasty stuff.

 

[hotspurdotus]

Glad you figured this out. One thing to consider also, is that an RO water system can't filter out Chloromines. It can take care of the Chlorine, but not Chloromines. Chloromines are a combination of Ammonia and Chlorine. Our entire state has started using Chloromines because our water is so polluted that Chlorine alone can't kill everything anymore.

I had similar issues when I first started brewing and finally figured this out. Every beer had an off flavor to it, no matter what I tried. I was using RO water and still do, but I learned that it takes Campden tablets to get rid of that nasty stuff.

The RO process itself won't remove chloramines. However, many RO systems include an activated carbon pre-filter that will remove chloramines. If you buy an RO system, look for one of the 4 stage systems that includes a carbon filter.

 

[stewart194]

The RO process itself won't remove chloramines. However, many RO systems include an activated carbon pre-filter that will remove chloramines. If you buy an RO system, look for one of the 4 stage systems that includes a carbon filter.

My RO system came with the house when we bought it. According to the guy who services it, it is one of the nicer / more expensive units. But it doesn't have the filter that removes chloramines. If I ever have to replace it, I will make sure I get one that does! Thanks for the info.

Also, a friend of mine brews with Culligan water that he "borrows" from work. This water doesn't have Chloromines. He's an extract brewer, and even if he uses all Culligan water...but then tops off his brew with just a gallon or less of regular tap water...it ruins the entire batch.

 

[fearwig]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

 

[afr0byte]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

Since when have people been saying that campden will do everything for your water? Do some people think they're used for things other than disinfection (of wine must, for example) or chlorine/chloroamine removal?

 

[fearwig]

Since when have people been saying that campden will do everything for your water? Do some people think they're used for things other than disinfection (of wine must, for example) or chlorine/chloroamine removal?

Like every third "water problems" thread I see someone say something like "I added campden but my wort still tastes like tea bags". I'm not saying it's a common misconception among experienced brewers or something. Thought my point was pretty clear.

THE POINT *AHEM* is if you have an RO system without a carbon filter campden should solve your problem.

 

[stewart194]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

That is all that I use it for, and I believe that is the only thing it does.

 

[pdietert]

Besides campden, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will neutralize chloramines. If you are already adding it to your water, there is no need for campden. I have an RO system and add 1/2 of a chewable vit. c tablet per 10 gal. of water. I have never detected the taste of the Vitamin C tablet nor the chloramines.

 

[The_Glue]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

I think i have the same problem, i am also in the process of changing equipment, sanitizer etc. but i have not brewed with the new stuff yet.

Did your new beers turned out fine? What about the OP?

 

[JoseLima]

Astringency is the problem. Ways to prevent astringency one big mistake that we are all guilty of is over crushing grain which allows the tannins of the grain husk to get in beer. Another cause is sparging with water with a ph level over 6.0 and sparging with water hotter than 170 degrees. Follow that rule and astringency will dissappear. High bitterness can also be perceived as astringency which is not pleasant. Using large amount of hops with high AA can cause it to.

joselima

 

[fearwig]

Some pretty solid sources have said crush isn't a big factor. I think that's probably true, though it stands to reason that a hull in one piece will give up less tanin than a hull in fifty pieces. Seems like pH makes a bigger difference.

 

[JoseLima]

Term is 'crushing grain' not 'pulverizing grain'.

BJCP-Jose

joselima

 

[The_Glue]

Astringency is the problem. Ways to prevent astringency one big mistake that we are all guilty of is over crushing grain which allows the tannins of the grain husk to get in beer. Another cause is sparging with water with a ph level over 6.0 and sparging with water hotter than 170 degrees. Follow that rule and astringency will dissappear. High bitterness can also be perceived as astringency which is not pleasant. Using large amount of hops with high AA can cause it to.

joselima

I get this astringent taste with no-sparge BIAB 40 IBU APAs with almost intact looking grain husks. I think in my case it is more like a water or sanitization issue. What is interesting that my first 3 brews did not had this off taste and the main difference between my first 3 (no off taste) and my last 5 (off taste) batches is that the bad ones were dry hopped.
The bad ones had better fermentation control, more yeast pitched, tighter mash temperatures, added acid malt, probably more ideal PH ranges. (i mean i started precipating the water, adding CaCl, using acid malt)
I used the same equipment on them.

I just drank my second brew ever, i made it 5 months ago and it tasted almost commercial perfect while i remember i hated its peachy esters and other off tastes a few months ago. It was made with normal tapwater. I am pretty sure its water even contained some chlorine or chloramine and it is still good.

The off taste did not got any better after a few months in the bad ones.

edit: the bad ones were dryhopped in the primary for a week with an amount of 1/2oz per gallon with different kind of hops

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Term is 'crushing grain' not 'pulverizing grain'.

BJCP-Jose

joselima

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I am wondering something. Everyone used to think that squeezing the grain bag extracted tannins, until BIAB became popular and disproved it. This seems like the same situation. BIAB brewers routinely grind their grain practically into flour, and from what I hear it works fine as long as the ph is controlled. Is this not the case?

 

[Foosier]

ou are correct. BIAB brewers will "crush" the grains to dust if they want to because our voile bags are such fine filters that the flour will not, in most instances, make it through. Now I am not advocating going all the way to flour, but you can. On my last brew the LHBS crush was not good and since I did not have a mill, I ran my grain through a food processer to improve the crush. No astringency at all.

The key to extracting tanins is Temp and PH. You could extract tanins from uncrushed grains if you used water higher than ph 6.0 and temp greater than 170. Crushing really has nothing to do with it.

For BIAB brewers and really all brewers you have to know your water to know whether your PH can create an issue for you. Some tap water will have too many minerals which nuetralizes the ability of your grist to lower the PH to acceptable ranges. When this occurs you could be mashing out for example at 170 with water around a ph of 6.0. Now you can get tanins.

If you know your water you can determine if this is an issue for you or not. Check out the Brew science stickies for more info. They will help you learn your water and what you may need to do.

 

[rwgaro]

Not to raise a dead thread but after struggling with a similar issue and digging around a lot, I stumbled on this thread - the post within that described the bitter taste as aspirin-like was a eureka moment for me... Finally know what to do!!!