All grain brews have the same "tart" taste - Please help!

[globe]

Does your kettle have a ball valve? Take it apart and clean it if so, all sorts of crap can grow in there if you do not properly rinse it every time. This could be infecting your beer. Sorry just a shot in the dark i know.

 

[dsaavedra]

You might try a batch without the acid malt. I brewed loads of good beer before messing with mash pH. It took several batches of tart beer for me to realize that the typical 3% rule is way too much acid malt for my taste. I prefer 1%.

It's definitely something to try, but my first two batches where I used two different sources of tap water (untreated except for Campden tablets) and no acid malt also had this same flavor. But then again neither source of tap water tasted that great to begin with. Maybe distilled water treated with minerals would produce a better beer without any acid malt.

Does your kettle have a ball valve? Take it apart and clean it if so, all sorts of crap can grow in there if you do not properly rinse it every time. This could be infecting your beer. Sorry just a shot in the dark i know.

Nope, no ball valve. I saw that brulosopher post where they narrowed the guy's persistent diacetyl taste to his dirty ball valve and the subsequent wave of people posting pictures of their dirty/cleaned ball valves!

If it was some piece of my equipment causing this taste then the only thing I think it could be is the bag. Aside from the bag I use all the same equipment in my extract batches and they don't have this flavor. My first two AG batches I used paint strainer bags, my most recent I upgraded to a finer mesh voile bag. But both of these types of bags seem to be pretty standard in the BIAB world.

 

[riderkb]

After rereading all this thread I think you have eliminated all the possibilities other than an infection. It was always a prime suspect anyway.

 

[dsaavedra]

After rereading all this thread I think you have eliminated all the possibilities other than an infection. It was always a prime suspect anyway.

Why would it be just my AG brews that are infected though? It seems too coincidental to me, leading me to believe it is something to do with the AG process. I have brewed three extract batches in between brewing these AG batches (since my first AG, I brewed extract, AG, extract, extract, AG, in that order) and all of the extract batches have been very good. All the extract batches are also brewed with the same equipment, and underwent the same sanitation procedures as my AG batches.

 

[riderkb]

Why would it be just my AG brews that are infected though? It seems too coincidental to me, leading me to believe it is something to do with the AG process. I have brewed three extract batches in between brewing these AG batches (since my first AG, I brewed extract, AG, extract, extract, AG, in that order) and all of the extract batches have been very good. All the extract batches are also brewed with the same equipment, and underwent the same sanitation procedures as my AG batches.

I don't know, man, you have me stumped. Keep us up to date on your next experiment.

 

[ceeaton]

Okay, I just read through this thread twice, because I had the same issue when I first went to all grain (20 yrs ago, memories have faded). Are you using the same water conditioning (additives) with your "in between" extract recipes as you are with your AG batches? The reason I'm asking is that I tried to get all fancy with pH readings when I first started being scared of getting tannins in my wort. I was using lactic acid and as soon as I removed that from the equation, my issues went bye bye. I do pre-boil and decant my tap water to get rid of bicarbonate/chlorine, then mix with RO water (I used to breed softwater tropical fish) about 50/50 for my mash, then use 100% RO for my sparge. I don't have issues and I live in south central PA and have extremely hard water (hence the RO rig for the fish).

Also, what kind of recipe are you using? I'm talking amounts of acid malt, other dark grains, hops and their timing in the boil. I've made what I consider some really funky beers (no infection) with certain types of hops too close to the end of the boil. For me I can't stand Northern Brewer the last 20 minutes of the boil (yet I love Chinook, go figure). Those variables can play into it and I've seen no mention of your exact recipe that is producing the less than desirable results. I don't have any BIAB experience since I just went to a picnic type cooler mash, but the recipe you are using might help other BIAB experts.

 

[dsaavedra]

Okay, I just read through this thread twice, because I had the same issue when I first went to all grain (20 yrs ago, memories have faded). Are you using the same water conditioning (additives) with your "in between" extract recipes as you are with your AG batches? The reason I'm asking is that I tried to get all fancy with pH readings when I first started being scared of getting tannins in my wort. I was using lactic acid and as soon as I removed that from the equation, my issues went bye bye. I do pre-boil and decant my tap water to get rid of bicarbonate/chlorine, then mix with RO water (I used to breed softwater tropical fish) about 50/50 for my mash, then use 100% RO for my sparge. I don't have issues and I live in south central PA and have extremely hard water (hence the RO rig for the fish).

Also, what kind of recipe are you using? I'm talking amounts of acid malt, other dark grains, hops and their timing in the boil. I've made what I consider some really funky beers (no infection) with certain types of hops too close to the end of the boil. For me I can't stand Northern Brewer the last 20 minutes of the boil (yet I love Chinook, go figure). Those variables can play into it and I've seen no mention of your exact recipe that is producing the less than desirable results. I don't have any BIAB experience since I just went to a picnic type cooler mash, but the recipe you are using might help other BIAB experts.

I did not do any kind of water adjustments to my "in between" extract batches. On one I just used straight tap water and that one turned out pretty good, on the next I used straight distilled water and it turned out better, and for the last extract batch I used straight spring water and it was the best beer I have ever made.

Regarding my three BIAB attempts, first one was a 2.5 gallon batch (ended up being closer to 2.75) using straight tap water (treated with Campden) from Baltimore. Recipe was 6lbs of English pale malt and 0.5oz Cascade @ 60min, 0.25oz Cascade @ 15min, 0.25oz Cascade @ 0min, 1oz Cascade dry hop. Mashed with 4 gallons I think...

Second BIAB attempt was a 5 gallon batch with straight tap water (treated with Campden) from Southern Maryland (I got a water report for this tap water - 0.73ppm Ca, 11.1ppm Mg, 51.5ppm Na, 2.4ppm Cl, 3.97ppm SO4, 120ppm CaCO3 alkalinity). Recipe was Cream of 3 Crops: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/. I followed the recipe as closely as possible, but I messed up my volumes and ended up with just under 4.5 gallons in the fermenter. I mashed with 6.5 gallons for this brew.

Third BIAB attempt was a 2.5 gallon batch (again, ended up at about 2.75 gallons in fermenter) using distilled water adjusted with minerals. Recipe was EdWort's Haus Pale Ale, recipe here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/bee-cave-brewery-haus-pale-ale-31793/. Only change to the recipe I made was using Crystal 20L instead of 10L, and I included 2 ounces of acid malt. I mashed with 4 gallons of distilled water and added half a teaspoon each of CaCl2 and CaSO4.


I'm not surprised my two tap water BIAB didn't turn out well because the tap water isn't even very good, my mash pH was probably way high. I definitely thought that the adjusted distilled water BIAB would turn out good though. What I haven't done is brewed a AG batch with adjusted distilled water but no acid malt... although my two tap water AG's didn't have acid malt and they have the same taste as my AG that does have acid malt.

Also, all three of my AG attempts have been pretty pale beers. Maybe I should make a stout or a porter like someone suggested and see if I am getting the same results? That would probably tell me something... not sure what... but it would be something.

 

[wardens355]

Have you had anyone local familiar with homebrewing taste your beers and give input?

 

[dsaavedra]

Have you had anyone local familiar with homebrewing taste your beers and give input?

I have not, but I just finished all of my final exams and I am graduating tomorrow (Bachelor's degree in Environmental Science! ) So I will finally have some free time to take a few bottles to the LHBS and have them taste it and see what they think.

Regarding my first AG attempt, the SMaSH with English pale malt and Cascade hops, several of my friends tried this one, but none of them are homebrewers or particularly well versed in the nuances of assessing beer. One of my friends "really liked it", he thought it was a super easy drinker and really did the trick (at 6.3% abv ), another thought it was "pretty good" but he hadn't really had many of my homebrews before, and another though it was "a good effort but didn't really taste much like beer, kind of weak tasting". It is this last friend's opinion that I agree with the most. And he has always given me an very straight up opinion of my homebrews - he has told me he really liked some and really didn't like others - so I know he isn't sugarcoating anything. My AG attempts just don't really taste much like real beer. They are very bland kind of bitter/tart/sour (I have to figure it out) and don't taste much like any kind of commercial offering I have ever had.

 

[trentm]

If the problem is astringency, remember the 2 main causes are mash pH (which you are working on) and sparge pH. Issues with sparge pH usually occur near the end of the sparge and if your final runnings fall below 1.010 (a lot of us try to stop at 1.012). This may not be an issue with BIAB. Anyway you might try acidifying you sparge water to pH 6 or add some calcium.

You or someone mentioned lactic taste I think. Maybe try using phosphoric acid instead of acid malt or lactic acid. That said, most people don't taste the lactic from acid malt or lactic acid additions in the amounts used in brewing to lower pH. However, perhaps you are very sensitive to the flavor.

 

[nolasuperbass]

I think someone hit the nail on the head when they blamed grain dust making the wort cloudy going into the boil. Just speaking from my own experience, I made maybe a dozen BIAB batches before upgrading to a traditional three-tier system, which I then used to make about 16 more batches. There was a significant improvement in the taste of the beer when I did that. The advantage to the traditional MTL is that you can recirculate the mash, which filters it, prior to boiling it. Otherwise, you're boiling all those fine bits of grain dust, which extracts tannins. The wort going into the boil with the new system is now completely clear, but before it was very cloudy. Don't get me wrong, the BIAB beer wasn't bad, it just wasn't anywhere near as good as the current beer. It usually had harsh tastes which are now absent. To me, this is the big disadvantage to BIAB that no one talks about.

It might have been my grain bag. I used cheap $2 dollar paint strainer bags from Lowes. I've never seen one, but I know they make fancier bags just for BIAB that might have a finer mesh, which might control the dust and cloudiness. I also didn't control the pH of the mash water, though I doubt that was the issue. I kegged all my batches, so there were no bottling issues. My advice, if you're serious about brewing beer, is to pop for a cooler mash tun and a pump. Do yourself a favor and get one big enough for 10 gallon batches. Put it on your Christmas list.

 

[The_Bishop]

I don't believe the starch contains the tannins; it's the husks that do.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Don't get me wrong, the BIAB beer wasn't bad, it just wasn't anywhere near as good as the current beer. It usually had harsh tastes which are now absent. To me, this is the big disadvantage to BIAB that no one talks about.

We're not talking about this because we don't have this problem. If you're getting astringency from the BIAB process, you're doing something wrong.

 

[dfhar]

To the OP:

Why don't you try a thicker mash? This will help fight any high pH issues if that's the culprit. I always do my BIAB mashes at 2 quarts of water for every pound of grain. You can reserve the remainder of the water in a separate pot and add it to the mash once conversion is complete. Then, pull and squeeze your bag like normal.

If you're brewing a very light beer, 1-2% acidulated malt probably won't hurt (but I would get a pH meter before fiddling too much with acidification). Crystal and roasted malts also have acidifying properties; maybe try brewing an ESB with 90% maris otter and 10% medium/dark crystal mashed at 2 quarts per pound at 154 degrees F. Unless you have very alkaline water, that kind of mash should have no pH issues.

I don't double mill my grain for BIAB, either, and I routinely get kettle efficiency in the low-mid 80's for every one of my batches. I doubt double milling itself is your culprit, although if you do have pH issues then double milling could exacerbate them.

 

[nolasuperbass]

I thought the problem we have is poor tasting beer when the poster switched from extract to BIAB.

For clarification, I think the cloudiness is fine bits of grain husk which then give off-flavors when boiled, like the ones described by the poster. It wasn't my mash pH or water conditions, which haven't changed. It wasn't bad grain. And it wasn't a few batches, it was many. The BIAB batches had a quality to them, which is now absent. There's just no way to filter the wort properly prior to the boil. I'm open to the fact that it may have been my cheap grain bag, or maybe I was sparging too vigorously. After tasting the consistent improvement, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't mess with BIAB at all, and I would no longer recommend it as a technique. I know that's a controversial statement, but it's just my two cents.

 

[dfhar]

It wasn't my mash pH or water conditions, which haven't changed. It wasn't bad grain. And it wasn't a few batches, it was many. The BIAB batches had a quality to them, which is now absent.

I have to ask - did you actually measure your pH? Because I really doubt your full volume BIAB mash pH was the same as your mash pH in your 3 volume system.

If you mashed at 1.5-2.0 quarts per pound (typical of 3V systems) and achieved a mash pH of 5.4, adding enough RO water to lower your mash thickness to 3.0-4.0 quarts per pound (typical of BIAB) will dilute the acids in the mash and raise your pH to about 5.8. If you don't use RO water and are using your tap water instead, which almost assuredly is more alkaline than RO water, your pH will be even higher.

You need to add a LOT of acid to lower the pH of a full volume BIAB mash from 5.8-6.0 down to 5.2-5.4. Enough to adversely affect the taste of the beer if you're using something like lactic acid. This is why I almost always recommend that BIAB folks who make lighter beers with anything more than trace levels of alkalinity in their water mash at 2 quarts per pound, acidify as necessary, and then add the remainder of their water after conversion is complete.

Very fine mash sediment making its way into the boil does not adversely impact the taste of the beer. I would be willing to bet that your problems were pH related.

 

[dsaavedra]

Interesting suggestions here. I definitely feel like the cloudy wort could be a source of problems, but a lot of BIABers report cloudy wort with no ill effects. I wonder if I used something like a pillow case to do my BIAB if that would help contain more of the grain dust? It would probably take forever to drain though. And it might not allow enough circulation of water during the mash. I'll look into it, might be worth a shot.

Regarding a thicker mash, this could also be worth a shot. Is it best to do a full volume mash with BIAB or use a more traditional mash thickness? I see a lot of people doing full volume mashes which is why I used my full volume for the mash all three times. This is something I am going to do some more research on. I recently discovered ESBs and I really like them, I may give one a shot for my next batch. I'm definitely not going to try and brew another very pale beer - I think if I can brew a decent darker beer that would help isolate some of the issue.

 

[stpug]

I went through a stint of overly-attenuated and tart beers after switching coolers. The culprit for me was slipping mash temps (like you mentioned early on) due to poor sealing on the cooler lid and poor temperature management on my part. I would hit my mash temp, then take a reading at the end without stirring, and then take another reading after stirring. Generally the difference between HIT and UNSTIRRED temps were 2 degrees maybe, but I would frequently see large discrepancies between HIT temp and STIRRED temp (>8°F). In the end, my beers were attenuating as if I had mashed at a much lower temperature (i.e. midway between HIT and STIRRED). The over-attenuation does multiple things: 1) it reduces the residual sugars of the beer leaving it more dry and tart, 2) it allows the isomerized hops to shine through even more which make for a more bitter beer, and 3) it unbalances the final beer leaving it overly bitter and tart.

My solution was to preheat my MLT cooler, and reserve 1-2 quarts of strike water. I add the "reserve" water at either midway (60min mashes) or third/two-thirds (90min mashes) way through the mash depending on mash duration. This acts to "refresh" the mash temp back to what it was or a degree above. This has resolved my issues with overly attenuated, tart beers

 

[dsaavedra]

I went through a stint of overly-attenuated and tart beers after switching coolers. The culprit for me was slipping mash temps (like you mentioned early on) due to poor sealing on the cooler lid and poor temperature management on my part. I would hit my mash temp, then take a reading at the end without stirring, and then take another reading after stirring. Generally the difference between HIT and UNSTIRRED temps were 2 degrees maybe, but I would frequently see large discrepancies between HIT temp and STIRRED temp (>8°F). In the end, my beers were attenuating as if I had mashed at a much lower temperature (i.e. midway between HIT and STIRRED). The over-attenuation does multiple things: 1) it reduces the residual sugars of the beer leaving it more dry and tart, 2) it allows the isomerized hops to shine through even more which make for a more bitter beer, and 3) it unbalances the final beer leaving it overly bitter and tart.

My solution was to preheat my MLT cooler, and reserve 1-2 quarts of strike water. I add the "reserve" water at either midway (60min mashes) or third/two-thirds (90min mashes) way through the mash depending on mash duration. This acts to "refresh" the mash temp back to what it was or a degree above. This has resolved my issues with overly attenuated, tart beers

Wow that sounds exactly like what is happening to me. This latest batch I hit my strike temp on the nose, like 152.1 degrees. After the mash was done I was measuring like 149 degrees, not that big of a drop. But after I stirred it was at 143. That kind of alarmed me but I figured that most of the conversion had already happened by the time the temps dropped too much. Maybe this is where my problem is coming from? That would be great, it seems like it would be a pretty easy fix - just insulate my kettle better and maybe stir and check temps periodically during the mash and add heat if necessary.

Regarding attenuation, my last beer finished at 1.008 (target was 1.011). This was the lowest finishing gravity I have every had in any of my beers since I started brewing. Some of my other BIAB beers finished at 1.011 or 1.010, which seems like a pretty normal finishing gravity. Can you get these over attenuation issues without having a super low finishing gravity?

 

[chickypad]

After reading through all this again I am even more convinced that someone experienced needs to taste your beers. We've gone from gross/disgusting/sour to bland and kind of tart. I don't think we know what we are trouble shooting.
Hope you get it figured out though.

 

[stpug]

Wow that sounds exactly like what is happening to me. This latest batch I hit my strike temp on the nose, like 152.1 degrees. After the mash was done I was measuring like 149 degrees, not that big of a drop. But after I stirred it was at 143. That kind of alarmed me but I figured that most of the conversion had already happened by the time the temps dropped too much. Maybe this is where my problem is coming from? That would be great, it seems like it would be a pretty easy fix - just insulate my kettle better and maybe stir and check temps periodically during the mash and add heat if necessary.

Regarding attenuation, my last beer finished at 1.008 (target was 1.011). This was the lowest finishing gravity I have every had in any of my beers since I started brewing. Some of my other BIAB beers finished at 1.011 or 1.010, which seems like a pretty normal finishing gravity. Can you get these over attenuation issues without having a super low finishing gravity?

It's very easy to test - that's for sure. It may not be your problem but I clicked on the thread because of the "tart taste" issue you mention in the title, and the fact that I had been through something similar. Then you mentioned the slipping mash temps and I really keyed in on it because that was an issue I dealt with over the course of several batches. Again, pretty easy to test - just keep the temps from slipping down (add a cup of boiling water every 10 minutes during your mash ought to do it, plus the stirring shouldn't hurt); however you accomplish the stable mash temps is fine.

Over attenuation is simply finishing lower than you planned; that might be 1.008, 1.010, or 1.018 depending on the beer you're brewing and yeast strain you're using. I'd say look at the apparent attenuation of the beer and compare it to the manufacturers attenuation range and your mash temperature to get an idea on whether or not the beer was over attenuated. For a strain line 1968, 75% AA would be overly attenuated; but it would need to be like 85% AA for a chico strain.

I hope this helps and that you are able to figure out what's been causing your "tart" character in your beers. If, and when you do, I would certainly like to know the cause.

Cheers!

 

[dsaavedra]

After reading through all this again I am even more convinced that someone experienced needs to taste your beers. We've gone from gross/disgusting/sour to bland and kind of tart. I don't think we know what we are trouble shooting.
Hope you get it figured out though.

That will be Yooper in a few weeks

I am admittedly very bad at describing individual flavors. However I am very good at knowing what tastes good or bad. All I can say for 100% certain is that my beer does not taste good at all.

I will keep this thread updated with whatever the LHBS people and Yooper think about my beer. Hopefully that will give us a little bit of direction.

 

[Moose_MI]

sub'd

 

[Homer]

I'm interested on how this turns out as well. I did 3, 10 gal all grains in a row, they were all dark beers (same recipe), two of them were fermented in new 15 gal plastic conicals, and the last split up in two glass carboys. Both of the ones in the plastic had a sour/tart flavor. My mash tun seems to keep temp well, so not sure if this was the issue, but the two sour/tart ones did ferment out lower than the third one.

 

[Moose_MI]

That will be Yooper in a few weeks

I am admittedly very bad at describing individual flavors. However I am very good at knowing what tastes good or bad. All I can say for 100% certain is that my beer does not taste good at all.
.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Local brew pub did a thing a few weeks back where they added various things to samples of Miller Light. It was intended to give an education about the various off flavors in craft/homebrew beer. I was really excited but I couldn't really discern much diff between any of them and really didn't learn anything except I'd rather drink bad homebrew than good miller light. !@#$

 

[dsaavedra]

To everyone who has been following this thread, sorry to disappoint but UPS wanted close to $30 to ship my beer to Yooper and that just isn't an option for me at this time.

I got the itch to fix this problem again and I am going to go to the LHBS very soon to buy ingredients for a simple ESB (going to brew a 1 gallon batch of it to minimize cost if it turns out gross like my others). I will bring some of my beers with me to see if the LHBS people can provide any input.

 

[The_Bishop]

When you mash in, you need to stir the mash like it owes you money. That insures the whole mash is an equal temperature. If you don't, you'll end up with hot and cold spots.

 

[dsaavedra]

Okay I took my second and third AG attempts to the LHBS to get some feedback.

Sadly, they all said there wasn't anything glaringly wrong with them (I disagree, I find them undrinkable) but they could definitely tell that there was something subtly weird about them.

They said it didn't seem astringent or taste like green apples, but it did seem kind of green (even though one of the beers is 6 or 7 months old). They noted very dry, thin body, and a champagne like fruitiness. One person thought that my third AG beer tasted hot and boozy, which I don't detect (and is unlikely since that beer fermented no higher than 60 degrees). They noted a lack of hop flavor and aroma, which I agree with (I didn't use a whole lot of hops in either batch and the batches have aged a bit). They suspect my slipping mash temps might be to blame (I lost about 9 degrees on my third AG beer). They also suggested letting the grain bag drain itself instead of squeezing to avoid getting a lot of very fine particulate matter into the wort.

I brewed a 1 gallon batch of ESB today with 89% marris otter and 11% crystal 60, with a half ounce of East Kent Goldings. This is a darker beer than the AG beers I have brewed previously. I also used an actual bag (that I painstakingly sewed by hand from my voile cloth) which was very effective at keeping bits of grain out of my wort.

I checked mash temps frequently throughout the mash - this turned out to be a disaster... my temp after mashing in was actually higher than my strike temp because the kettle was still sitting on the warm stove top burner. I added a splash of cold water to bring it down and it was right in the sweet spot of 155 for a while but then the temp started dropping because I didn't have any insulation on the outside of the kettle (because the still warm burner melted my blanket onto the glass cooktop which outraged my mother so I had that to deal with while trying to brew). So I turn up the heat to medium high to try and get my temps back to 155. I overshot it and ended up close to 162 again.

My detailed mash temps are as follows (I was stirring the mash as I was recording the temps):
158 at mash in,
161.7 at 50 minutes left,
155 at 45 minutes left,
153.6 at 40 minutes left,
150.6 at 30 minutes left,
155 at 20 minutes left,
160 at the end of the mash.

So basically I mashed all over the place but I think I stayed in a range that won't give me super dry thin beer. So that is the first big change. I also let the bag drain on its own into another pot with a colander and added it back in to the boil once it was done draining. No squeezing - the wort that drained out of it was very clear, can't say the same for the wort that was in my kettle though.

Queue disaster part 2, I boiled off WAY more than I expected, and I only ended up with a half a gallon of 1.090 wort. I was shooting for a a full gallon of 1.059 wort. So I topped up with spring water until my OG was 1.058 and called it a day. I hate topping up because it dilutes the IBUs but according to Brewer's Friend, the amount of hops I put in to what ended up only being a half gallon of wort would put my IBUs around 100, so diluting probably helped me instead of hurt me.

Unfortunately, so many things went wrong that I don't think this will be a very good batch to compare against my previous batches. I will be able to tell right away if my mystery flavor is still present, but if I did end up fixing my problem it will be tough to narrow down what exactly fixed it.

I will keep everyone updated.

 

[stpug]

Thanks for posting back your test beer process and notes. I look forward to the tasting notes when you that far into the experiment. I hope you've somehow narrowed the range of possibilities with this batch.

I don't find the varied mash temps overly disturbing. You averaged in the mid to upper 150s for the first 30 minutes, and only had one dip for a short while into the low 150s. I suspect most of the conversion was done within 30 minutes (particularly due to the stirring) so that latter half probably only had some minor effects on the malt character of the beer.

 

[dfhar]

I really think it's a pH issue.

 

[dsaavedra]

I don't find the varied mash temps overly disturbing. You averaged in the mid to upper 150s for the first 30 minutes, and only had one dip for a short while into the low 150s. I suspect most of the conversion was done within 30 minutes (particularly due to the stirring) so that latter half probably only had some minor effects on the malt character of the beer.

Well that is reassuring. I was freaking out pretty hard at the time trying to keep my temp stable but the more I look back on it the more I agree with what you said.

I think in the future I am going to ditch BIAB in favor of mashing in a cooler, this should help with maintaining temperatures. Maybe I will do some kind of hybrid where I use a mesh bag in a cooler to simplify the process.

How do you think the topping off will affect the final brew? I think Brewer's Friend was telling me my IBU would have been around 85 before topping off, so I assume that doubling the volume by adding spring water should halve the IBUs and put me in the low 40's which would actually be perfect.

 

[thekraken]

I'm dealing with some of the same issues I think. Do you sample your batches as they ferment? I've noticed that they taste fine to great during primary and starting secondary but turn bad after 6ish weeks. This is making me think I'm dealing with some kind of infection that I'm introducing with maybe the auto siphon or tubing or something.

I took some to the LHBS yesterday for a diagnosis and he immediately said diacetyl. This confused me since I don't taste anything remotely similar to a butter flavor my self, and I have had some nasty buttery beer before...

 

[dsaavedra]

I'm dealing with some of the same issues I think. Do you sample your batches as they ferment? I've noticed that they taste fine to great during primary and starting secondary but turn bad after 6ish weeks. This is making me think I'm dealing with some kind of infection that I'm introducing with maybe the auto siphon or tubing or something.

I took some to the LHBS yesterday for a diagnosis and he immediately said diacetyl. This confused me since I don't taste anything remotely similar to a butter flavor my self, and I have had some nasty buttery beer before...

Typically the only time I take samples are on brew day (though I don't taste the wort because I don't like the way wort tastes in general), and then on bottling day. I do drink my samples on bottling day and on these AG batches, the taste was exactly the same on bottling day as it is now 7 months later.

Although now that I have a refractometer and can take gravity readings with only a few drops, I may take small eyedropper-full samples more often and get a little taste of the progress.

 

[stpug]

How do you think the topping off will affect the final brew? I think Brewer's Friend was telling me my IBU would have been around 85 before topping off, so I assume that doubling the volume by adding spring water should halve the IBUs and put me in the low 40's which would actually be perfect.

That sounds correct to me and should put you in a good spot for an ESB. Hopefully you don't sense the problem on this test batch.

 

[dsaavedra]

The beer is chugging along in my basement. It is pretty cool down there and I have the gallon jug sitting in a bath of water (no ice bottles though). The water bath is about 56 degrees and since I am using a 1 gallon jug and the beer is right near the top, I was actually able to take a temperature reading of the beer itself and it was at 56.8°F. Slightly cooler than the ideal temperature range of S-04 but still within the tolerable range. It doesn't seem like it is struggling to work either, there are tons of bubbles riding up the sides of the jug and collecting at the top to form a nice thick tan/greenish krausen. I'm just going to leave it, I will warm it up in a few days after the krausen drops so the yeast can finish up if it was a little bit too cool for them. Hopefully fermenting on the cool side will just give me a cleaner tasting beer.

 

[The_Bishop]

Be prepared to rouse the s04. I did an ESB with S04, kept at 66 degrees during the whole ferment. It fermented out, flocced hard and dropped before cleaning up after itself, leaving behind far too much diacetyl. I had to rouse it back up twice to get it to clean up after itself.

 

[dsaavedra]

Be prepared to rouse the s04. I did an ESB with S04, kept at 66 degrees during the whole ferment. It fermented out, flocced hard and dropped before cleaning up after itself, leaving behind far too much diacetyl. I had to rouse it back up twice to get it to clean up after itself.

I will keep this in mind. How did your beer eventually turn out?

I moved it upstairs to warm it up a little bit but it is still on the floor where the air temp is a bit cooler, probably close to 60 degrees. Still seeing a fair amount of small bubbles riding up the sides of the jug, just not at the rate they were previously, so it may be winding down. I'll do a gravity reading and report back.

 

[dsaavedra]

According to my refractometer and Brewer's Friend's alcohol correction calculator, my beer at at 1.028 SG now, so the yeast still have some work to do. I know that hydrometers are more accurate for taking FG measurements but I don't have much beer to spare to take a hydrometer reading. I will take a hydrometer reading when its time to boil though.

The little pipette worth of beer that I sampled today tasted... not very good. It is still way too early to make any judgement calls but I think it may end up tasting like the rest of my AG beers.

 

[The_Bishop]

The beer turner out OK, but I got a little of the dreaded '04 twang' from it. I did a second batch with Nottingham at 68 degrees that I liked a *lot* more. All else in the recipe was the same.

 

[serum]

I've had something similar to this with my lighter beers and was getting concerned, whereas darker beers I've done tended to taste a bit better.

However I've noticed that a few of them really seemed to sort themselves out after about 4 months (athough this doesn't seem to have happened in OP's case)

I was getting a harsh and grainy taste and I think I've got a few potential pH and temperature issues. The few dark beers I've done fared better and I think that was due to the acidity they provide.

I'm making Belgian style beers so they all attenuate pretty well but I was getting no sweetness at all from them.

I've got myself a much better thermometer and done a bit of rudimentary water treatment on my latest brew so hopefully that'll sort things out.

I'll keep an eye on this thread as there have been some excellent tips already.