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Tobor_8thMan

Tobor_8thMan

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I want to brew a Newcastle Brown ale. Recipes indicate mixing old beer with new beer to achieve the desired Newcastle Brown ale taste.

Instead of having gallons of beer sitting around for months waiting for it to get old, what is the best way to quickly age beer (make the beer old)? I'm thinking keep the beer at warmer than normal temps. How long?

Thoughts?
 
I refer to Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beer " quite often. I will with this post again refer to it because it brings to mind a passage which was actually in the Porter section. Porter was a beer blended by the bartender in the day. It was considered to be engineered and "industrial beer" . It consisted of many different versions , which I'm assuming was dependent and proportionate upon the volume of the beers in each ale houses barrels on any given day but were all derived from brown ales from brown malts. So I think this is appropriate for your question.

-mild beer and stale beer mixed;
-ale, mild and stale blended;
- half and half ( like a black and tan);
- three threads(ale, beer and twopenny);
*a mixture of 2 brown beers ,one stale, one mild;
- three threads;pale,new brown ale and stale brown ale;
four threads and six threads(constituents not given).

Given that , I hope that bit of history helps you find what you're looking for.
 
To answer your OP, I dont let beer get old...IF it is old, it probably wasnt that good to begin with or I moved on with another beer mini-fad /taste. .
 
You still want tastey beer,so you need to embrace time! Old beer doesn't mean stale,it will have some oxidation going on but only a little. Also older beers have less hop flavor and the bitterness fades some what. This is what i would try, short fill a keg by 1/2 gal and use priming sugar to keg condition,burst it with 25-30 psi CO2 then let sit at room temp for 6-8 months. Brew the new beer , keg and carb, and blend at the tap until I get what I want then blend a keg,and end up with 3 beers or just go 50-50 and have 2 of the same.
 
hottpeper13 said:
You still want tastey beer,so you need to embrace time! Old beer doesn't mean stale,it will have some oxidation going on but only a little. Also older beers have less hop flavor and the bitterness fades some what. This is what i would try, short fill a keg by 1/2 gal and use priming sugar to keg condition,burst it with 25-30 psi CO2 then let sit at room temp for 6-8 months. Brew the new beer , keg and carb, and blend at the tap until I get what I want then blend a keg,and end up with 3 beers or just go 50-50 and have 2 of the same.
Click to expand...

Thanks. What I thought. Was hoping there is a way to accelerate the 6 to 8 months.
 
Newcastle was once a blend of two beers but neither were aged. One was a dark strong ale and the other was a lighter amber ale. They were brewed fresh and then blended. But unless you are quite old you probably have only ever had it as a single, unblended beer.

That does not mean you cannot follow whatever recipe you found and blend and old and mild beer together--it probably will not remind you much of Newcastle though. Warmer beer develops an aged character faster than cooler beer but the warmer the beer gets the more the beer degrades. Keeping it at 70F versus 60F might be fine but throwing it in your 95F garage is probably not producing great beer. You might shave off a month or so at 70F or 75F but nobody has figured out how to effectively make new beer taste like old beer.
 
mashpaddled said:
Newcastle was once a blend of two beers but neither were aged. One was a dark strong ale and the other was a lighter amber ale. They were brewed fresh and then blended. But unless you are quite old you probably have only ever had it as a single, unblended beer.

That does not mean you cannot follow whatever recipe you found and blend and old and mild beer together--it probably will not remind you much of Newcastle though. Warmer beer develops an aged character faster than cooler beer but the warmer the beer gets the more the beer degrades. Keeping it at 70F versus 60F might be fine but throwing it in your 95F garage is probably not producing great beer. You might shave off a month or so at 70F or 75F but nobody has figured out how to effectively make new beer taste like old beer.
Click to expand...

Hmm... several recipes for Newcastle Brown indicate making and old beer and then blending it with the new beer. Blending the old beer provides the "twang".

By chance, have a good Newcastle Brown clone recipe that doesn't employ the old beer strategy?

Thanks.
 
Tobor_8thMan said:
Hmm... several recipes for Newcastle Brown indicate making and old beer and then blending it with the new beer. Blending the old beer provides the "twang".

By chance, have a good Newcastle Brown clone recipe that doesn't employ the old beer strategy?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

There is a lot of bad brewing information out there. If you find any of those recipes citing a source for that position I would be surprised but they certainly won't be sources doing anything more than repeating some brewing lore they heard from somebody else who made it up.

There are plenty of English beers, at least historically, brewed or blended by the publican, that included blends of old and mild beer. Great beers--just not Newcastle.

A good direction to follow for Newcastle would be the northern English brown ale recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. The BJCP guide at the time it was written included that as a style but it was pretty much Newcastle.
 
mashpaddled said:
There is a lot of bad brewing information out there. If you find any of those recipes citing a source for that position I would be surprised but they certainly won't be sources doing anything more than repeating some brewing lore they heard from somebody else who made it up.

There are plenty of English beers, at least historically, brewed or blended by the publican, that included blends of old and mild beer. Great beers--just not Newcastle.

A good direction to follow for Newcastle would be the northern English brown ale recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. The BJCP guide at the time it was written included that as a style but it was pretty much Newcastle.
Click to expand...

Hmm... the Newcastle Brown recipes I considered are from respected and well known books. I do have a copy of Jamil's book. Page 150 and 151. Reading the description I'm not, even though he titles the recipe "Nutcastle", this is a valid clone.

Reading the description gives me the impression of a brown ale or nut brown. I've brewed both of these and don't consider either as valid Newcastle Brown Ale clone.
 
Soulshine2 said:
I refer to Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beer " quite often. I will with this post again refer to it because it brings to mind a passage which was actually in the Porter section. Porter was a beer blended by the bartender in the day....

- three threads;pale,new brown ale and stale brown ale;
Click to expand...

Sigh, not the three threads myth again. Three threads in the 1600s was a tax dodge - since the tax on strong and very strong beer was the same, you could dilute a barrel of very strong beer with two barrels of low-tax weak beer, and end up with three barrels of strong beer whilst paying much less tax. Porter didn't come along until a generation later, and was made simply with brown malt. They didn't have much in common other than being affordable beers.

@Tobor_8thMan - it depends on what you mean by Newcastle Brown. Which means looking at some of the proper British beer historians :

Martyn Cornell : http://zythophile.co.uk/2011/03/31/why-theres-no-such-beer-as-english-brown-ale/
Roger Protz : https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2011/03/23/Heritage-means-little-to-the-marketing-men
The local paper : https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/history/newcastle-brown-ale-20-fun-12791435

So it was created in 1927 by a brewer with a background in porter, as a less bitter competitor to the likes of Bass. "Newcastle Brown was for many years a blend of two beers, a young ale and one that had been matured for several months." (Protz)

"mixing a low-gravity beer brewed at about 1030 OG (and sold separately for many years as Newcastle Amber Ale) with a matured, darker (from crystal malt and caramel) high-gravity beer to produce a blend with an abv of 4.7 per cent. The high-gravity beer gives fruity notes to the blend, and a final colour that is much the same as or only a little darker than many traditional English bitters...The sweeter, maltier characteristics are more forward than you’d find in a bitter/pale ale, and there’s less of the hop apparent than would be found even in a Burton: bitterness, I believe is 24 IBU." (Cornell)

Protz writing in 2011 says they stopped blending "some years ago" (anecdotally this seems to have happened by the time production moved out of Newcastle in 2005 and possibly before) and they stopped colouring it with caramel in 2015 (which usually means adding a touch of black malt to maintain the colour).

Dog in the 1920s was over 6% with OGs of 1060ish and apparent attenuations in the high 70s%, in the 1950s OGs were 1049-1053 with apparent attenuations touching 80% for ABVs in the 5.1-5.8% range and colour of 40-50EBC (ie 20-25 SRM). I suspect they were using more adjunct at that time. Now it's 4.7%.

So when you say you "want to brew a Newcastle Brown ale" - which one do you mean? The original blended ones at >6%, the blended ones of the 1990s heyday, the unblended ones with caramel of 2005-15 or the current unblended recipe coloured presumably by black malt?

Forget the recipe, the first thing to get right is the yeast. The S&N yeast is a very fruity northern English yeast of a kind that's not readily available from homebrew suppliers. Brewlab F40 allegedly came from them but that's not easy to get hold of. I'd use the most characterful British yeast you can find, maybe add a pinch of hefe yeast like Munich Classic to ramp up the esters, and ferment pretty warm, try 21°C for your first batch but be prepared to go higher.

I suspect they always used 10-15% invert #2, and I imagine that Heineken have added more adjuncts - rice, maize etc. Start with UK pale malt (ordinary pale, nothing expensive like Maris Otter, or cut Otter with some US 2-row or pilsner to dilute it) and that 10-15% invert, then I guess they're using a fairly dark crystal to replicate the old ale - but not much of it, mebbe 2%? Maybe 1-2% chocolate malt? And a pinch - 0.5%? of black for colour. 22 IBU of British hops at 60 minutes, then a modest amount of some British hops (something cheap like Phoenix or WGV) at 10-15 minutes.

There's no real substitute for ageing to get the right character if you want that old ale taste, as I say I suspect they're using a bit of dark crystal to get somewhere close, maybe a pinch of Special B.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Sigh, not the three threads myth again. Three threads in the 1600s was a tax dodge - since the tax on strong and very strong beer was the same, you could dilute a barrel of very strong beer with two barrels of low-tax weak beer, and end up with three barrels of strong beer whilst paying much less tax. Porter didn't come along until a generation later, and was made simply with brown malt. They didn't have much in common other than being affordable beers.

@Tobor_8thMan - it depends on what you mean by Newcastle Brown. Which means looking at some of the proper British beer historians :

Martyn Cornell : http://zythophile.co.uk/2011/03/31/why-theres-no-such-beer-as-english-brown-ale/
Roger Protz : https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2011/03/23/Heritage-means-little-to-the-marketing-men
The local paper : https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/history/newcastle-brown-ale-20-fun-12791435

So it was created in 1927 by a brewer with a background in porter, as a less bitter competitor to the likes of Bass. "Newcastle Brown was for many years a blend of two beers, a young ale and one that had been matured for several months." (Protz)

"mixing a low-gravity beer brewed at about 1030 OG (and sold separately for many years as Newcastle Amber Ale) with a matured, darker (from crystal malt and caramel) high-gravity beer to produce a blend with an abv of 4.7 per cent. The high-gravity beer gives fruity notes to the blend, and a final colour that is much the same as or only a little darker than many traditional English bitters...The sweeter, maltier characteristics are more forward than you’d find in a bitter/pale ale, and there’s less of the hop apparent than would be found even in a Burton: bitterness, I believe is 24 IBU." (Cornell)

Protz writing in 2011 says they stopped blending "some years ago" (anecdotally this seems to have happened by the time production moved out of Newcastle in 2005 and possibly before) and they stopped colouring it with caramel in 2015 (which usually means adding a touch of black malt to maintain the colour).

Dog in the 1920s was over 6% with OGs of 1060ish and apparent attenuations in the high 70s%, in the 1950s OGs were 1049-1053 with apparent attenuations touching 80% for ABVs in the 5.1-5.8% range and colour of 40-50EBC (ie 20-25 SRM). I suspect they were using more adjunct at that time. Now it's 4.7%.

So when you say you "want to brew a Newcastle Brown ale" - which one do you mean? The original blended ones at >6%, the blended ones of the 1990s heyday, the unblended ones with caramel of 2005-15 or the current unblended recipe coloured presumably by black malt?

Forget the recipe, the first thing to get right is the yeast. The S&N yeast is a very fruity northern English yeast of a kind that's not readily available from homebrew suppliers. Brewlab F40 allegedly came from them but that's not easy to get hold of. I'd use the most characterful British yeast you can find, maybe add a pinch of hefe yeast like Munich Classic to ramp up the esters, and ferment pretty warm, try 21°C for your first batch but be prepared to go higher.

I suspect they always used 10-15% invert #2, and I imagine that Heineken have added more adjuncts - rice, maize etc. Start with UK pale malt (ordinary pale, nothing expensive like Maris Otter, or cut Otter with some US 2-row or pilsner to dilute it) and that 10-15% invert, then I guess they're using a fairly dark crystal to replicate the old ale - but not much of it, mebbe 2%? Maybe 1-2% chocolate malt? And a pinch - 0.5%? of black for colour. 22 IBU of British hops at 60 minutes, then a modest amount of some British hops (something cheap like Phoenix or WGV) at 10-15 minutes.

There's no real substitute for ageing to get the right character if you want that old ale taste, as I say I suspect they're using a bit of dark crystal to get somewhere close, maybe a pinch of Special B.
Click to expand...
I had no idea it was a tax dodge...i actually thought it was a way to get rid of the old beer by cutting the new with it and maybe one that didnt sell well.
 
Here’s NB’s (the LHBS) recipe
 

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JimRausch said:
Hmmm. I wonder if the 'twang' means the old beer was stored in wooden casks with Brett.
Click to expand...
All British beer except "mild" was aged with Brettanomyces. It was the distinctive characteristic of British beers (as opposed to continental beers,) hence the name: Brettanomyces, "British fungus." Mild referred to beer sold young and fresh without this aging; it was usually just an unaged version of a "stock" beer, so any style could appear in both forms. Some designations, like IPA, of course specifically referred to the aged product. As the practice of aging fell out of favor in the early 20th century, it would be fair to say that, in the older sense of the term, all British beer today is Mild.
 
Robert65 said:
All British beer except "mild" was aged with Brettanomyces.
Click to expand...

Yeah - back in the 19th century, before Dog was even invented. Any souring of the beer that it was made with before 2005 would likely have been bacterial - Acetobacter is the great enemy of British beer.

Since the OP wants to recreate the modern unblended beer, it's not really answering the question.
 
I think the challenge and process of creating first a beer to be aged and then months (or even a year) later brew a second, mild beer and then blending the two would be awesome. Goose Island did this just a few months ago with an 1840's porter recipe... mixing a porter that had been vat aged for a year with fresh and the idea has been swirling around in my head ever since.
 
kevin58 said:
I think the challenge and process of creating first a beer to be aged and then months (or even a year) later brew a second, mild beer and then blending the two would be awesome. Goose Island did this just a few months ago with an 1840's porter recipe... mixing a porter that had been vat aged for a year with fresh and the idea has been swirling around in my head ever since.
Click to expand...
Greene King Strong Suffolk (may also have had other names in other markets?) was about the last hanger on of this type of beer. I don't know if it's still made, but if you ever see it, grab it for some tasty inspiration. The old ale was sometimes aged for years before blending and bottling. I wouldn't mind trying the Goose Island effort.
 
Robert65 said:
Greene King Strong Suffolk (may also have had other names in other markets?) was about the last hanger on of this type of beer. I don't know if it's still made, but if you ever see it, grab it for some tasty inspiration. The old ale was sometimes aged for years before blending and bottling.
Click to expand...

Aka Olde Suffolk in the US I believe. Yep, it's still around, and it looks like they're making a bit of a push to export it in bottle - I've not had it, but I have had 5X, the 12% barleywine component aged at least 2 years, on cask. Until recently they did a poor man's version in the form of Old Crafty Hen which had I guess 5-10% of 5X for a definite hint of vinous character, I imagine not unlike Dog in the old days.

Goose did a video about Obadiah Poundage, their 19th century porter - which was so much more than just a blend, they were recreating old ways of preparing malt etc.
 
Well, it all comes down to what era of Dog you're trying to recreate. You say you want to recreate the current one, in which case you can ignore all the two-part recipes.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Well, it all comes down to what era of Dog you're trying to recreate. You say you want to recreate the current one, in which case you can ignore all the two-part recipes.
Click to expand...

Based on what I've recently learned not the Newcastle Brown Ale from today as today's is different than just a few years ago. I like the NCBA from a few years ago.
 
Last edited:
.As I said above Lagunitas starting making it six months ago. If you're wanting the 2015 version, that would have been a single beer made in the Netherlands, around the time they switched from colouring with caramel to presumably colouring with black malt.
 

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