Aged lager?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

anotherbeerplease

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 26, 2017
Messages
201
Reaction score
111
Location
New York
I'm interested in brewing a both a true Marzen and a Festbier. Brewed in March and lagered until at least September.

I'm sure it's been done before but it's my first time - anything I should be aware of with such an extended (in the modern sense) lagering period?
 
I'm sure it's been done before but it's my first time - anything I should be aware of with such an extended (in the modern sense) lagering period?

Yes, your beer will be more stale (from oxidative reactions) than it would be with less aging. IMO, lagers should be lagered until they are crystal clear (or as clear as the brewer wants), then consumed. Once the yeast, proteins, and polyphenols have dropped and the beer is clear (and assuming fermentation, including byproduct cleanup, was complete before lagering), there's really nothing good happening any more.
 
Agree w/ Vikeman and I’ve lagered Fests/Marzens from spring til fall in the past (usually sipping on them a few times in between). I have been happiest w/ September-served fests brewed the first week or so in June.

IMO, doppelbocks (eg) are at their peak in the 5-6 month range and fest-type beers really shine at 3 months— then gradually lose their subtle character over a few months until the last (sniff) pint. You can limit oxidation somewhat with spunding or using speise in the lagering keg. This will buy you some time if you want to try the old school long lagering approach.
 
Ever since covid my beers are lasting 6 mos or more so I started using Brewtan-B in the mash. I can't do side by sides but the hop and malt character are still forward at 6-8 mos.
 
I lagered a keg of Märzen brewed in March until September once. I wanted it to be “traditional”. It was refrigerated with the CO2 hooked up the whole time. This was when all my gas and liquid lines were still vinyl Bevlex. It was an oxidized disaster when I tapped it. In hindsight, I should have removed the gas line after it was carbonated and just checked the headspace pressure occasionally. I was under the impression that if I left it hooked up to constant positive pressure the whole time there wouldn’t be a problem, now I know that doesn’t work with that kind of tubing. I have since switched to EVABarrier tubing, but haven’t tried another extended lagering experiment. Natural carbonation might be the way to go.
 
Lager them cold, mine lager at 34F. 90 days for most lagers, 180 days for Oktoberfests. The great thing is you can hook the keg up and test them along the way!
 

Attachments

  • 7E0ED294-A6B0-4C3D-AE2F-9E290F9ED6B5.jpeg
    7E0ED294-A6B0-4C3D-AE2F-9E290F9ED6B5.jpeg
    1.5 MB · Views: 15
I'm guessing by "true" you mean true to some historical reference? As you pointed out yourself, it is largely impractical to lager it for so long, and I doubt any (Munich based) brewery would do it that way.

From what I gathered, the reason for this schedule was (among other things) the difficulty of maintaining low fermentation temperatures during summer, so they had to rely on the lower ambient temperatures for brewing. Putting a beer in a fridge for half a year appears to run contrary to the actual intent behind the practice?
 
Lagers were produced in the cooler months in Germany and surrounding areas. It was illegal to brew in the summer.

Beer historically was aged in cold and probably ice/straw filled lagering caves, during the days prior to industrial refrigeration. Marzens (beers brewed in March, March beers like Oktoberfests, other Marzens) were aged out until September or October (Oktober!) traditionally for festivities. Prost!
 
Just a quick note, and you probably already know this, but a Festbier in no way resembles what they call Oktoberfest in the US.
It is more like a typical German Pilsner, but on steroids. Being a little higher in ABV. And just slightly darker in color than a Pils. Nothing like the sweet / caramel Oktoberfest beers brewed here.

https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/4/4B/festbier/
 
I believe the current Festbier style was developed by Paulaner, but what is known as an Oktoberfest has changed over the years. I still have some Paulaner 2021 Oktoberfest here, doesn’t remind me of a Pils though.
 
Last edited:
I believe the current model Festbier was developed by Paulaner, but what is known as an Oktoberfest has changed over the years. I still have some Paulaner 2021 Oktoberfest here, doesn’t remind me of a Pils though.

While on a layover in Frankfurt, I went to the Paulaner restaurant which is near Old Town, and right behind St. Bartholomew's Cathedral.
They had Festbier on the menu, so we ordered some. It was pale, much like a Pils. The flavor was subtle, but slightly more ABV. I was surprised, as we expected the type of Oktoberfest beer that is brewed in the USA. Everything about their Festbier was a complete shock. It was very good, but more like a super-charged Pilsner.

The Paulaner Oktoberfest is an entirely different beer, and I suspect only available in the US. Never saw it in the stores in Germany.

You are correct, as Paulaner was the originator of Festbier, around 1990.
 
I live in Munich, born and raised. Besides more recent offerings by emerging "craft" breweries, I have not once seen a Märzen or what is called "Oktoberfest" in the US.
The latter appears to be modelled after the beers served at the Oktoberfest in the past, before these transitioned to the paler Festbier style (a Helles on steroids, I'd say, not a pil, which is also sometimes referred to as Märzen here, but actually golden in colour), sometime around the 1970s iirc?
 
I had a Paulaner Festbier some years back in the fall in Germany and it was just perfect, and even though Ayinger makes my favorite "Oktober Fest-Marzen", I would really like to improve my brewing of both of these styles.

I think the color of Marzen is what many Americans might typically associate with "oktoberfest" even though in Germany you would be served a very light colored Festbier. In any case I have been trying to develop a great Oktoberfest recipe since I started brewing and I figure this is my year to experiment with brewing in March and lagering until the fall. There is a practical reason to do this as well - although I do have refrigeration, my garage in March generally stays right around the mid to low 50s which is perfect for lager fermentation.

So I guess there are mixed thoughts as to whether it will be an oxidized mess but I'm willing to try it this year and see. My lagers which have sat a while almost always taste better to me, so this time an intentional "aging" period might help (?)
 
Last edited:
So I guess there are mixed thoughts as to whether it will be an oxidized mess but I'm willing to try it this year and see. My lagers which have sat a while almost always taste better to me, so this time an intentional "aging" period might help (?)

Some important things about oxidation...
- Every beer has some dissolved oxygen and is subject to further oxygen incursion. Every beer has oxidized and will oxidize. There is no such thing as an unoxidized beer.
- The total oxidative damage depends on things (partial list) like:
---- Total damage before packaging
---- Dissolved O2 at packaging
---- Headspace O2 at packaging
---- Oxygen incursion after packaging
---- Trace Metals in the beer
---- Amounts of antioxidants like sulfur compounds
- The rate of oxidation (i.e. how fast it gets worse) depends on all of the things listed above, plus Temperature. For every increase of 10 degrees celcius, expect staling to happen 2-3 times faster.

When people say, "I do X, and my beers aren't oxidized," or "I don't do Y, and my beers aren't oxidized," they really mean that the amount of oxidation doesn't bother them, or in fact they may like the resulting flavors. It could bother others. I've tasted some messes that the brewers thought were the t!ts.

(ETA and clarify: sulfur compounds can "use up" oxygen that would otherwise oxidize the beer. Metals are actually pro-oxidants. I should have put them on their own bullet. In fact, I will do that now.)
 
Last edited:
What does an oxidized beer taste like? Skunky? Lightstruck?
Cardboard?

Skunky and Lightstruck are the same thing and aren't related to oxidation. Lightstruck is when
light in the 350 – 500 nm wavelength range strikes Isohumulones (from hops) in the presence of Riboflavin (produced by yeast). The result is 3-methyl-2-butene-thiol, i.e. skunk.

Oxygen/Oxidation related flavors depend on what was oxidized. Here's a page from a presentation I did a while back that lists some of them:
dEI1ZqM.jpg


The full presentation, "Beer (In)Stability, Oxidation, and Freshness Presentation (.PDF)" can be downloaded from my club's library at:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/library/
 
It is rare that I have an old lager that tastes good. They are better consumed fresh.
Time, temperature, oxygen, and light are beers mortal enemies.
 
IPA’s you drink fresh, the hop flavors degrade.

Most lagers are malt forward, not hop forward and holdup well stored cold in a keg. About the hoppiest lager I currently have on keg is a Citra Pils, it is holding up well. 90 days aging on that one, then about 6 months drinking.
 
Depending on the process, they may "hold up" if stored sufficiently cold, but there is no benefit to be gained. It's a waste of electricity that is the exact opposite of the historical schedule's intention.
 
Depending on the process, they may "hold up" if stored sufficiently cold, but there is no benefit to be gained. It's a waste of electricity that is the exact opposite of the historical schedule's intention.

Yes, lagers, especially the lighter lagers, start losing taste immediately. While they may still be drinkable in 3 to 6 months, the peak flavor will be long gone. I will not buy any beer that is 6 months old.
 
1516 Bavarian law Reinheitsgebot didn’t mention AC current if I recall, so we’re good to go!

I have 6 kegs on tap, I can’t drink that fast…. 5 are lagers, 1 IPA…. No ice caves on my property either!
 
Last edited:
Not so sure, as Old Milwaukee, Falstaff, Heidelbrau, and Grain Belt were staples in not only my father's fridge, but also my grandfather's.
 
Speaking of old beer, check out my vintage beer collection. A real electricity waster if there ever was one! Beers of my mis-spent youth. Makes me happy just gazing at it!

View attachment 762263
Are you planning to drink those or just saving them for posterity? I know you can still buy Coors Banquet. But Schlitz, wow.
 
@Beermeister32 - Don't spend time on it, but if it's just a cut and paste - thank you.

KegLand has a new flow control disconnect design that should get released in the US later this year. So I am going to experiment with that. They also have a mini-draft faucet attachment they are designing to go with it, but I expect that may take another year. So I am just pondering good faucet options to potentially pair with the flow control disconnect.

https://www.kegland.com.au/duotight...-lock-disconnect-liquid-black-yellow-pok.html
 

Latest posts

Back
Top