Afraid to ask, but too frustrated not to....

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Sheridan197

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I started trying to brew about a year ago. I've had a couple of successes, but more failures. The beer would be fine going into the fermenter, but then came off with a sour taste. I assumed it was sanitation, so I stepped it up. I'm OCD with my sanitation, and still getting that same nasty pucker taste, which increased with aging. I hit on something this morning: I'm not getting a full boil on my stove. It comes to a 'angry' simmer, but not a full, rolling boil. I'm using my kitchen stove, and had wondered why the guys at the beer store used a turkey fryer. But I'm a newbie and was scared to ask for fear of ridicule and mockery!! Also, I'm at 9500 feet in the Rocky Mountains and wondered if altitude might be a factor in the boil as well? The successes I've had have all been honey ales. I know that honey is an antibacterial, which may have something to do with preventing that sour taste. Really love brewing, but I'm tired of throwing money down the drain! Should I quit and take up needlepoint, or am I onto something with the boil thing?
 
A rolling boil and your angry simmer shouldn't be much different with regards to killing off bugs (EDIT2: it might have an effect on taste though since apparently the rolling boil will drive off volatile compounds more easily). Have you checked your water? There are several threads on how water can have the most unexpected effects on the outcome of basically everything in brewing: mashing efficiency, taste, fermentation, hops utilization etc. I'd try getting purified water and adding whatever needs to be added for your particular style.

EDIT: It's in the forum rules here to NOT mock newbies!!! :mug:
 
It's a good possibility. Grains have some of lactobacillus. If your not reaching a boil to sanitize your wort you could be picking up an infection there. Also if your using plastic to ferment in and you fermented an infected beer in it, there is a good chance you will pass that infection to the next batch of wort you throw in the fermenter.
 
Yeah,I agree these could be the problem. I have a link to some aftermarket electric burners that heat up faster to allow me to bring 3.5 gallons from mash temp to boiling in about 18 minutes in my profile. Pasteurization happens rather quickly @ 160F. But boiling does seem to ensure that whatever is added to the wort sanitizes quickly & effectively.
But anything that touches the chilled wort must be clean & sanitized. Especially sanitized right before use. Since your equipment had a souring infection introduced to it,it'll need some serious cleaning & resanitizing. Clean the fermenter with a PBW soak for a few days,4TBSP PBW to enough water to go up just above the crud ring. When soaked clean,rub lightly with a non abrasive scrubber to get loosened crud off that didn't fall off already. Rinse well. Then fill with a weak bleach solution & soak another day.
Rinse very well with very warm water till no more bleach can be smelled.
I'd then rinse it good with some Starsan,then drain & store till next time. This process includes any spoons,paddles,racking tube rigs,autosiphones...anything that touched the infected beer.
 
Using propane and a bayou classic burner would solve the rolling boil issue, plus the added benefit of getting your operation outdoors. I love that, personally. Where you are I bet its pretty nice to be outside :) . Its not a very expensive upgrade, although I realize these things do add up. Oh and you also get the benefit of doing a full boil if you have a large enough pot, which further improves your brew.

I have this one. I like it because of the wind shield - it really works. I use a 7.5 gal pot with no problems at all. SP-10: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000291GBQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Here is one that other folks on here like because of its larger base, which can fit a keggle. Somebody on the site posted a DIY wind shield he made for this. SQ-14: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYQ4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
At your altitude, the water never exceeds 195F (that's the boiling point at 9500 ft.). Still, that is plenty to kill bacteria almost instantly.

The sour you are tasting is almost certainly an infection, most likely bacteria. So, OCD or not, you have a sanitation issue.

The wort is definitely not infected coming from the pot. Your problem is entering after that.


  • Are you using StarSan to sanitize?
  • Do you bottle? How do you clean your bottles? Caps too?
  • What do you ferment in?
  • How do you transfer the beer from fermenter to bottling bucket?
 
Sheridan197 said:
going into the fermenter, but then came off with a sour taste. I assumed it was sanitation, so I stepped it up.
Click to expand...

I would ask:

How are you cleaning and sanitizing?
What beers are you having the issue with and are you mashing/Steeping?

I do not go overboard with Sanitation... I mean we all have been taught that the "little beasties" are out there and they make us sick and ruin our beer since we were kids but the truth is unless you are brewing where there is lots of wind to blow stuff into your wort you really can't infect it to much that way. (not everything is going to grow or even if it does the Alcohol and Hops usually win)

You could have a problem in some plasitic but again if you are soaking it in a "light" solution of Oxyclean or PBW for a few days and then rinseing and sanitizing well you can just about get away with anything.

Here is my suggestion:

Wash/Soak in cool/cold water Oxyclean/PBW with a low concentration.
Rinse with HOT Water.

Both of these products can produce scale in tubing and fermentors and this could be screwing up your beer.

DURATION of the chemical iinstead of CONCENTRATION.

Then when you sanitize use Starsan (or whatever) with hot water to try to remove the any of the cleaner.,.. Do not use bleach as it has it't own problems.

ALSO: if you are steeping grains or Mashing make sure you are not extracting the tanins... You might be depending on your water... Some people think this taste is sour...

Many people let their wort sit over night before casting their yeast because after being cooked it is sterile.

I have had to do it in the Summer when I could not get the beer cool enough with a heat exchanger... It goes in the fermentation chamber to cool down and then I areate and cast the yeast.

Last but not least... what hops are you using and does anyone else notice this sourness?


DPB
 
unionrdr said:
...Since your equipment had a souring infection introduced to it,it'll need some serious cleaning & resanitizing. Clean the fermenter with a PBW soak for a few days,4TBSP PBW to enough water to go up just above the crud ring. When soaked clean,rub lightly with a non abrasive scrubber to get loosened crud off that didn't fall off already. Rinse well. Then fill with a weak bleach solution & soak another day.
Rinse very well with very warm water till no more bleach can be smelled.
I'd then rinse it good with some Starsan,then drain & store till next time. This process includes any spoons,paddles,racking tube rigs,autosiphones...anything that touched the infected beer.
Click to expand...

You can hold off on the StarSan Sanitization until brewday No sense in doing it twice. Just make sure that everything is CLEAN after brewing. Clean meaning no debris or residue anywhere. Then SANITIZE (Starsan, Idiophor, etc) just prior to touching wort or beer anything that will touch the wort/beer after it is chilled.
 
You guys are awesome! Thank you for the quick, pleasant replies and thank you for not making mock of me! Let me see if I can remember all the questions:
I use bottled water to brew. We are on well water here, and it comes out of the ground hard. It's been tested so it's drinkable, but it is very hard and I have to really work to get suds when I wash the dishes.
I have been cleaning the brewing stuff with dish soap and water, then sanitizing with IOStar or Starsan. I alternate back and forth between the two. I generally soak the equipment overnight, then let it air dry.
I ferment in the plastic fermenter for the first week, then transfer into a glass carboy for the second stage. All the implements of destruction are cleaned and sanitized the same way. Corks, airlocks, tubing, auto-siphon, etc.
I bottle with a bottling bucket, tubing and a bottling wand, all washed and sanitized. Bottles are washed, sanitized, air dried and so are the caps. I even sanitize the pan I make the priming sugar water in. I transfer the brew from the carboy to the bottling bucket with an auto siphon and tubing. Sponges to clean, not anything that will scratch.
My brew pot will easily accommodate 3 gallons.
The brews that have failed miserably are: Irish stout, Liberty Cream Ale, European Pilsner. The ones I've been successful with are Honey Bee Ale (x2) 1 batch of Cream Ale, something called Tri-cer-a-hops and a Honey Nut Brown Ale.
I don't think I left anything out, did I?
Thanks again for any and all help. I'm so frustrated. I want to do this correctly, but I'm too cheap to keep throwing stuff away!
 
Sheridan197 said:
You guys are awesome! Thank you for the quick, pleasant replies and thank you for not making mock of me! Let me see if I can remember all the questions:
I use bottled water to brew. We are on well water here, and it comes out of the ground hard. It's been tested so it's drinkable, but it is very hard and I have to really work to get suds when I wash the dishes.
I have been cleaning the brewing stuff with dish soap and water, then sanitizing with IOStar or Starsan. I alternate back and forth between the two. I generally soak the equipment overnight, then let it air dry.
I ferment in the plastic fermenter for the first week, then transfer into a glass carboy for the second stage. All the implements of destruction are cleaned and sanitized the same way. Corks, airlocks, tubing, auto-siphon, etc.
I bottle with a bottling bucket, tubing and a bottling wand, all washed and sanitized. Bottles are washed, sanitized, air dried and so are the caps. I even sanitize the pan I make the priming sugar water in. I transfer the brew from the carboy to the bottling bucket with an auto siphon and tubing. Sponges to clean, not anything that will scratch.
My brew pot will easily accommodate 3 gallons.
The brews that have failed miserably are: Irish stout, Liberty Cream Ale, European Pilsner. The ones I've been successful with are Honey Bee Ale (x2) 1 batch of Cream Ale, something called Tri-cer-a-hops and a Honey Nut Brown Ale.
I don't think I left anything out, did I?
Thanks again for any and all help. I'm so frustrated. I want to do this correctly, but I'm too cheap to keep throwing stuff away!
Click to expand...


What are you using as top off water? I assume you're boiling 3 gallons and topping off to 5 gallons. Is this water sanitary?
 
You shouldn't sanitize stuff the night before and let it air dry. Star San is supposed to be a contact sanitizer. 90 seconds of contact with the sanitizer, get rid of the excess, and you're ready to roll. Don't worry about the foam. It acts like yeast food and it doesn't affect the taste of your beer.
 
Just to add to what has already been written.

Firstly, your boil should have no issue killing any contaminating bacteria; nothing that infects beer survives for very long above 65C (150F), so an hours simmer (which will be a fraction of a degree cooler than your local boiling temp) will sterilize the wort - no worries there.

That said, some contaminating organisms are very hard to rid yourself of once they've made a home. This is especially true of plastic equipment - e.g. fermentation buckets, siphons, etc. Any little scratch or crevice can protect the bugs from your most OCD sanitization efforts, leading to post-boil contamination of your wort. It may be worth replacing these items to see if that resolves the issue.

Bryan
 
I've been told dish soap leaves a film that can affect flavor. I've never used it, so I don't know from experience. I got some brew wash (Craftmeister and PBW seem to be the same thing) and it works so good that I don't ever plan on using anything else.

Maybe that is your problem.
 
Few quick notes on your process.

-Try not to use scented dish washing soap, try using Oxyclean with a good rinse, or go to one of the local brew shops and get some cleaners developed for brewing (OneStep, PBW, StraightA) and follow the associated directions.

-As previously mentioned StarSan is a contact sanitizer, try not to let it dry, once it is dry the sanitation becomes questionable. I have never used IOStar so no comment on that.

-If this is a continuing issue you may want to grab a new fermenting bucket, or a glass primary fermenter. If you have scratches in the plastic those can harbor bacteria and can be very difficult to clean. This holds true for all plastic parts. Some brewers replace all plastic parts, including tubing, to combat infections.
 
I'd say clean with PBW and don't let things sit out overnight. When I brew I usually do so in the afternoon. In the morning I've got PBW soaking all my stuff and chewing up any nasty stuff. Then when I'm ready to use it I dump it out, put some starsan in and let it sit for 15 minutes, dump it out and then use it right away. Knock on wood I haven't had problems yet.
 
Sheridan197 said:
I generally soak the equipment overnight, then let it air dry.
I ferment in the plastic fermenter for the first week, then transfer into a glass carboy for the second stage. All the implements of destruction are cleaned and sanitized the same way. Corks, airlocks, tubing, auto-siphon, etc.
Click to expand...

Everyone already mentioned to not soak/sanitize overnight and to not let it dry. You can clean the equipment after using it, and put it away. Then, when you are going to use it, rinse it off if it's dusty and then sanitize. Sanitize immediately before using, and use it while it's still wet with sanitizer.

About your plastic fermenter, and transferring to a a carboy. Since plastic can scratch and harbor bacteria, can you skip the transfer and just ferment in the glass?

I use plastic all the time- but it needs to be kept without any scratches at all and well sanitized.

For the next batch, skip the transfer to "secondary". Just ferment, allow to sit for 10 days, and the bottle. That can help nail down errors in the process, and avoid an unnecessary risk of contamination.
 
There's been a lot of reports of infections in the plastic spigot on bottling buckets. They are very hard to clean once infection gets in there if its not one that you can take apart fully. You may want to try to replace it.

On dishsoap, not recommended because it affects head retention but I doubt that's your taste issue. I like oxyclean though. Works as well as pbw in my opinion and is WAY cheaper (use oxyclean free, no perfume).

I also doubt it's a scratched bucket issue if you are soaking the bucket in starsan, but better bottles are "better" if you want to stick with plastic "don't blame you" as they are really hard and don't scratch as easy as buckets.

Also the gaskets on bucket lids have nice tight spaces where bacteria can collect.
 
I'm also a pretty new brewer, done about 8-10 batches, and live in the New Mexico mountains around 8,000 feet. I've never had an infection, and am pretty lax about cleaning. There doesn't seem to be any bacteria around here, bread left out just dries to dust, and doesn't grow mold.

I would start out fresh, with the minimum. Ferment in the glass right from the start, and don't open it until it's done. Skip the bucket if you can, and rack straight into a keg. Try to minimize the things that contact the wort.
 
I'm on it, guys. Thank you so much. Replacing plastic fermentation bucket, bottling spigot and tubing. PBW on order. Shopping for a turkey fryer now because the thought of brewing outside up here is a pleasant one! I really appreciate all your help. Optimistic now! Will report back with (hopefully) good news!
 
Warthaug said:
These decisions should be made in winter - I found myself regretting the turkey firer route every Dec through April.

Bryan
Click to expand...
Can't you just walk inside and use the stove then?

I remember an episode on BrewTV by Northernbrewer where the guys all went and brewed on a frozen lake (Minnesota). That was kinda crazy.
 
If there are any experienced home brewers (or better yet a BJCP judge) in your area you could always ask one of them to sample your beer and help identify if it the flavor is an infection, off-flavor from your process or contamination.

Someone else had asked but I didn't see your response - are you doing extract, partial grain or full grain? If you steep/mash your grains too hot that can definitely give you unwanted flavors in the beer.
 
Sheridan197 said:
I'm on it, guys. Thank you so much. Replacing plastic fermentation bucket, bottling spigot and tubing.
Click to expand...

What kind of bottling wand are you using?

The spring-loaded ones can get full of yucky stuff if you don't take them apart and clean the spring.

Good call on the bottle bucket spigot as well. I once found an earwig in mine after I bottled a batch. :eek:
 
I am not convinced you are dealing with an infection...everybody else seems to think infection because of the word "sour", but I think it is tougher to get an infected beer than most think...because my brother can brew without getting infections. I would need more evidence of an infection other than sour taste.

Your best bet is to take it to your LHBS and have them taste it. what tastes sour to you might actually be another off flavor....possibly from the yeast depending on your fermentation temps. Also, what are the yeasts you are dealing with on your failed batches? Irish yeast is giving me fits.

I am not really sure if your boil is an issue with off flavors if you are doing extract, but I know it IS a problem if you are doing partial mash or all grain with the pilsner and cream ale due to DMS. That should be more of a corn taste though.
 
My first gues would be the dish soap. That stuff is nasty and will impart a "sour" tinge to anything that isn't thourouly rinsed.
 
my first thought based on your descriptors is that you are steeping grains above 170 degrees -- double check your thermometers and make sure you aren't doing this.

my second thought is infection, replace the bucket and you should be good if that is the cause.

my final thought is that you are falling victim to more common off-flavor causes like underpitching yeast or fermenting too warm and you are although you have a sensitive pallet, are not great at describing taste.
 
bd2xu said:
There's been a lot of reports of infections in the plastic spigot on bottling buckets. They are very hard to clean once infection gets in there if its not one that you can take apart fully. You may want to try to replace it.

On dishsoap, not recommended because it affects head retention but I doubt that's your taste issue. I like oxyclean though. Works as well as pbw in my opinion and is WAY cheaper (use oxyclean free, no perfume).
Click to expand...

Bingo on the bottling bucket spigot issue. Ruined a couple of batches that way. Now I disassemble EVERYTHING and clean well with PBW then put it away. Use your starsan as others have described. Since doing this and switching to glass fermenters I have been on a roll.
 
Not sure if anyone said it but if your not getting a good rolling boil or leaving the lid on for that matter you might not be driving off enough DMS precursers. Where it tastes fine when its sweet wort but the yeast will convert those evil suckers into a cooked corn bomb. Just my .02....sorry if it was already mentioned
 
AZ_IPA said:
What kind of bottling wand are you using?

The spring-loaded ones can get full of yucky stuff if you don't take them apart and clean the spring.

Good call on the bottle bucket spigot as well. I once found an earwig in mine after I bottled a batch. :eek:
Click to expand...


Wouldn't that make it a 'beer wig'?
 
Sheridan197 said:
I'm on it, guys. Thank you so much. Replacing plastic fermentation bucket, bottling spigot and tubing. PBW on order. Shopping for a turkey fryer now because the thought of brewing outside up here is a pleasant one! I really appreciate all your help. Optimistic now! Will report back with (hopefully) good news!
Click to expand...

I should get serious. I bought two turkey-friers, and got two propane tanks, and two 22qt stock pots. Two batches takes the same amount of time as one, right?

It's still warm here, mid-80's in the daytime. In July, it should start raining, and then I'll sit on the deck, watch it rain, and cook like crazy :rockin:
 
BrewerinBR said:
Just a question of curiosity
When you bottle the beer does it taste sour then or after you bottle it?
Click to expand...

The last batch I brewed tasted ok when I bottled it, but I tried a bottle a week later and it was sour. Left it for three weeks and tried another bottle, it was the same.
 
mcbaumannerb said:
If there are any experienced home brewers (or better yet a BJCP judge) in your area you could always ask one of them to sample your beer and help identify if it the flavor is an infection, off-flavor from your process or contamination.

Someone else had asked but I didn't see your response - are you doing extract, partial grain or full grain? If you steep/mash your grains too hot that can definitely give you unwanted flavors in the beer.
Click to expand...

Extract only thus far. It seemed to me that if I can't brew from a kit, I sure couldn't do anything more complex!
There aren't any home brewers in my neck of the woods. We're in a little town of 18 people. We're about 90 minutes out of Denver, and I'm sure I could take a bottle to the Home Brew store down there. However, I dumped them all out after my last abysmal failure!
 
Has anybody mentioned water yet? What water are you using? I have had water issues with some beers but not with others....I think some minerals can react with certain malts/esters but not with others.

For extract, you can use straight RO water with no additions.
 

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