Advantages of fermenting for longer?

[cmoon]

This has probably been asked but I can't seem to turn it up with the search engine.

I went to a brewing class and asked a rather pointed question about the advantage of letting the beer sit in the fermenter after any activity was visible. I swore I had heard expert brewers say there was some advantage to letting it sit in the fermenter for longer, but the response was no, once the activity was over with, it was time to move it over to the secondary or even bottling, and that I time was just being wasted.

Any thoughts on this? Like to hear some other thoughts on this.

 

[slomo]

Primary fermentation is like a huge party in a bucket, and in that bucket a huge mess occurs during fermentation. The yeast are very good at cleaning up there own messes, and the more time you give them in primary the more cleaning they can do.

 

[Gildog]

i agree with slomo, with a little tweak. If you want to let our beer ferment for a longer period of time i recomend racking it to a secondary as fermentation starts to slow. The yeast cake on the bottom of the bucket is mostly dead yeast. I have left a beer on the yeast cake too long and it will impart a very yeasty character as the dead yeast breaks down. By racking at the end of fermentation you save the living yeast in the beer to do the cleanup and remove the dead yeast before is starts to break down

 

[cmoon]

Hmmm, but what about putting your next wort right on top of the old yeast cake? From your description, that doesn't sound like such a good idea, but I've heard of brewers having great luck with it.

 

[IrregularPulse]

i agree with slomo, with a little tweak. If you want to let our beer ferment for a longer period of time i recomend racking it to a secondary as fermentation starts to slow. The yeast cake on the bottom of the bucket is mostly dead yeast. I have left a beer on the yeast cake too long and it will impart a very yeasty character as the dead yeast breaks down. By racking at the end of fermentation you save the living yeast in the beer to do the cleanup and remove the dead yeast before is starts to break down

Hmmm, but what about putting your next wort right on top of the old yeast cake? From your description, that doesn't sound like such a good idea, but I've heard of brewers having great luck with it.

It's not "dead" yeast. The yeast go Dormant. This is why they can wake back up when you pitch another batch of beer onto the previous cake. Sitting for a LONG time could give you autolysis (sp?) but that is a very long long time (several months to a year or more), but it's more so considered one of the boogymen of brewing along with HSA.
Secondaries have really be under scrutiny, at least on this forum. Lots of people have switched away from them.
I started leaving all beers in primary for 1 month, then adding gelatin and cold crashing to clear, (into the primary) then racking to keg. My beers have improved dramatically. Give the yeast time to clean up after itself. You're not "wasting" time. The beer wouldn't be ready to drink anyway in the time you'd save. Green beer is green beer no matter how many vessels you rack it to.

 

[Revvy]

There's been a shift in consciousness over the last three years...there is a couple hundred discussions about this on here, including at least three YESTERDAY.

Just look for threads with titles like "No secondary" "Long Primary" "How long can I primary" and "Autolysis."

Most people who answer unequivicably "no" or "it's bad" are about 3 years behind conventional brewing wisdom. Now, many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

You'll find that a great many folks, maybe even the majority on here these days, leave their beers in primary for 3-4 weeks, skipping secondary. Many of us even dry hop in primary, and only rack to secondary if we are adding oak or fruit, or had fruit in the boil or primary and left lots of trub behind.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

And this;

John Palmer

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.

People have left it as much as six months.

This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...In fact a lot of stuff has been started on here, and made it into byo or zymurgy or podcasts...in fact BYO DID a piece on no secondary/long primary, along with the BASIC BREWING PODCAST and even they said that there were no issues/harm with doing it and in some beers it did actually improve the flavor and clarity. And I believe that really WAS influenced by the discussion we have had for the last couple years on here.

Like I said rather than continue to beat a dead horse, or re-invent the wheel in a question that has already been discussed throughly, and like I said there are at least 3-4 current threads on this very topic, and and least 3-4 new ones a day.

You can find all the discussions, citations, arguments for, andf arguments against. This has been the most covered discussed topic on here for the last three years....There is a plethora of info.

It's been covered on here so much that most of us are weary of discussing it any further, you will find many of the advocates for dong it ignore these threads nowadays...so if you want to hear what the folks with experience have to say I suggest you look around and some of the larger thread discussions.

Most of it originating here in this forum, and like I said, only now beginning to be discussed out side of here......So unless your teachers are up to date (and a lot of old dogs can't be taught) they are simply citing old school thinking..

The ultimate answer I tell everyone, rather than debate or discuss it further, just try it and see which way works best for you....Heck you could even slit a 5 gallon batch, or better, brew a 10 gallon batch and try one the secondary route, and the other batch the long primary and see for yourself.........


Oh and it's not a question of "fermenting longer" fermentation takes as long as it needs to, it's a process that we are not in charge of, THE YEAST ARE...it more of a question of "What do I do "POST" fermentation?"

I live all my beers in primary for a month, I don't cold crash or add anything like Irregularpulse does, half the time i even forget to add moss in the boil. And my beer is crystal clear, clean tasting, and my contest scores and judges comments are quite high. So I won't be going back to secondaries except for lagers, and the rare adding oak or fruit, anytime soon.

 

[schweaty]

I used to use primary and secondaries but like Revvy said, unless I'm doing wood aging, lagers or fruit I don't anymore. I most recently stopped using secondaries for dry hopping and just put the hops in the primary fermenter towards the end of fermentation or dry hop in the keg. Eventually I guess I realized why take a chance at exposing my beer to something when I transfer it. The more you move your beer the higher the risk becomes of oxidation and possible contamination.

 

[cmoon]

Great posts, thanks!

 

[Yooper]

Exactly what the others said- traditionally, the beer was removed off of the yeast cake immediately after fermentation. http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

However, with the explosion in homebrewing, many of us noticed that the beer didn't seem to really benefit from time in a "secondary". John Palmer says later in that same chapter about secondaries: "There has been a lot of controversy within the homebrewing community on the value of racking beers, particularly ales, to secondary fermentors. Many seasoned homebrewers have declared that there is no real taste benefit and that the dangers of contamination and the cost in additional time are not worth what little benefit there may be. While I will agree that for a new brewer's first, low gravity, pale beer that the risks probably outweigh the benefits; I have always argued that through careful transfer, secondary fermentation is beneficial to nearly all beer styles. But for now, I will advise new brewers to only use a single fermentor until they have gained some experience with racking and sanitation. Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur."

So, in short, there really isn't a consensus on this issue. I'm in the camp of almost never doing a secondary, as I keep the beer in the fermenter about 3 weeks or so before kegging or bottling. That doesn't mean it's the "right way" to do it- it just means that it's the right way for me.

 

[bdaddy]

I started leaving all beers in primary for 1 month, then adding gelatin and cold crashing to clear, (into the primary) then racking to keg.

You add the gelatin to the primary, then cold crash? Reason I'm asking is I just had my first successful 10G batch (BM's Cream of 3 crops ale) and this happens to be the first time I'm kegging, so I'm hoping to have a nice beer in my new kegerator.

Since I used my bucket and better bottle as my primaries, secondary is no real option for me (unless you consider the keg as secondary). So I was thinking i'll leave it in primary for 3 weeks, the cold crash for 2 days (in primary), then rack to keg and force carb.

So it'll be beneficial to add some gelatin to my primary prior to cold-crashing?

 

[springer]

So it'll be beneficial to add some gelatin to my primary prior to cold-crashing?

When i add gelatin it during the crash . the gelatin works best in cold beer so I set the fermentor in the chest freezer set to 30-34° let it cool a day or two and then add the gelatin . Let it go 3 or 4 days and rack into the keg

 

[JiveTurkey]

I, too, have decided to stop using the secondary for most brews. (Wish I'd come to that conclusion before buying a second carboy). I now have two buckets that double as primary and bottling bucket.

I used to use primary and secondaries but like Revvy said, unless I'm doing wood aging, lagers or fruit I don't anymore. I most recently stopped using secondaries for dry hopping and just put the hops in the primary fermenter towards the end of fermentation....

But why use the primary for dry-hopping but not wood and fruit? What's the advantage of using the secondary for wood/fruit that's not present for hops?

Batch #3, an APA, has been in primary for three weeks, and was planning on transferring to a carboy with dry-hops tomorrow to sit for another week. Now, I'm thinking I should just lift off the lid and toss the hops into primary.

I guess I'm wondering if I'll ever need the carboy again. Apparently not for hops, but why would I still want it for fruit and wood? (BTW, lagering is not an issue as I don't like lagers.)

Help me decide whether I should sell one or both of my carboys.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

This is my first brew to go to a secondary, because I want to see if it helps clarify the beer enough to outweigh the risks of exposure while racking. It's a lager kit I'm making as an ale -- so I want it to be as clear as possible.

I also usually leave my wort in the primary for 3-4 weeks and then age in the bottle for 5 (3-4 warm, 1-2 cold).