Adjusting Recipe Questions

[1bottlerocket]

Hi all,

I am not sure if this is the right forum for my questions but here goes.

I completed my first brew and drank almost all of it and I have a couple questions. I followed John Palmer's recipe for Cincinnati Pale Ale. I had to make a few adjustments on the ingredients: I used Brew Ferm liquid amber extract not the dry extract he calls for, and the grain steep he calls for I could not find an exact match so I went with a close match and steeped that.

The beer is drinkable, though not great, meaning you could put it out at a party and most people would probably drink and not complain. This leads to my question. For me the beer is out of balance. There is not enough malt flavor to balance out the hop bitterness and the aroma hops don't come through that much but the bittering hops do, especially at the end.

Is it possible to bring the malt flavor more forward using extract? Would it be better to go all grain and try it that way? I am not sure where to go at this point.

I would like to try and refine a Pale Ale recipe with a more malt forward flavor to bring it in balance with the hops. I am not set up to go all grain at this point but do plan on purchasing more equipment this fall and beginning to brew again. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[corax]

The simplest suggestion first: if your beer is too hoppy, add less hops!

A partial mash would be a good way to introduce more malt flavor without going all-grain. If you do, consider including some kilned specialty malts like Aromatic Malt, Honey Malt, or Melanoidin Malt, which add strong malt flavors without the caramel sweetness of crystal malt.

If you stick with extract, make sure to use the highest quality extract you can.

 

[IslandLizard]

Did you correct the amount of malt extract for the type of malt extract used? If not, that could explain why it's short on malt flavor.
Liquid malt extract contains 20% water. The conversion rate is 1 DME = 1.25 LME.

What temp did you steep your grains at? Were they milled/crushed?

Exact matches of ingredients is not always possible, and usually not all that important. Close is good enough. Sure it won't be the same as the recipe but since homebrewers' process variations tend to be fairly large and inconsistent, a brew using the exact ingredients not necessarily yields anything close either. RDWHAHB!

 

[1bottlerocket]

The simplest suggestion first: if your beer is too hoppy, add less hops!

A partial mash would be a good way to introduce more malt flavor without going all-grain. If you do, consider including some kilned specialty malts like Aromatic Malt, Honey Malt, or Melanoidin Malt, which add strong malt flavors without the caramel sweetness of crystal malt.

If you stick with extract, make sure to use the highest quality extract you can.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

There is not too much hop flavor, if anything I would like a bit more hop flavor at the beginning when drinking it. For me it is more that there is no malt flavor to balance anything out. It seems the beer is searching for an identity. There is a sweet caramel taste, and some hop but no malt. I like the idea of a partial mash or a steep using some kilned specialty malts.

I recently attempted an NEIPA style and used a grain bag and steeped Honey and Melanoidin malt. That was a bit tricky being a first timer but I could really tell a difference when smelling the wort. It is carbonating up right now.

I don't plan to stick to extract. I more want to learn the process and get comfortable making everything. So far I am on my third batch of beer so total beginner. I have cooked professionally in the past so I have a basic working knowledge of procedures and handling.

Are there some brands of extract that are better than others? I was mainly looking for something without hop additions. Brewferm is all I could find.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[1bottlerocket]

Did you correct the amount of malt extract for the type of malt extract used? If not, that could explain why it's short on malt flavor.
Liquid malt extract contains 20% water. The conversion rate is 1 DME = 1.25 LME.

What temp did you steep your grains at? Were they milled/crushed?

Exact matches of ingredients is not always possible, and usually not all that important. Close is good enough. Sure it won't be the same as the recipe but since homebrewers' process variations tend to be fairly large and inconsistent, a brew using the exact ingredients not necessarily yields anything close either. RDWHAHB!

Yes, I converted from dry to liquid. There was a thread somewhere I read about that. One thing I know that happened is I overestimated the amount of boil off and used too much water. I steeped the grains at 150°F for 30 minutes. They were crushed from the homebrew supply shop. I used a crystal malt that added caramel flavors. The thinking was that it overpowered the aroma hops but that was only a guess.

Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

For me the beer is out of balance. There is not enough malt flavor to balance out the hop bitterness and the aroma hops don't come through that much but the bittering hops do, especially at the end.

Is this the recipe?

Cincinnati Pale Ale
Ingredients:
3-4 lbs. of Pale malt extract syrup, unhopped.
3 lbs. of Amber dry malt extract.
12 AAUs of Bittering Hop (any variety)
5 AAUs of Finishing Hop (Cascade or other)
3 packets of dried ale yeast

What hops did you use, how much, and at what times in the boil? Do you know the %AA of each? Those are important factors that cause bittering in wort.

AAU is the weight of a hop addition multiplied by her %AA. For example 1 oz of hops with a 12% AA, or 1.5oz of hops with 8% AA, will each yield 12 AAU.
As a bittering hop they're typically added at the beginning of the boil. You can use an IBU calculator, like this one at Brewer's Friend to see how many IBUs this generates. The longer in the boil the more bittering, although it's far from linear. For example those 12 AAUs will yield 44 IBUs in a 60' boil of 1.055 wort. That's a proper amount for that style (Pale Ale) and recipe.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, I converted from dry to liquid. There was a thread somewhere I read about that. One thing I know that happened is I overestimated the amount of boil off and used too much water. I steeped the grains at 150°F for 30 minutes. They were crushed from the homebrew supply shop. I used a crystal malt that added caramel flavors. The thinking was that it overpowered the aroma hops but that was only a guess.

Thanks!

Sounds like your wort gravity was close to the recipe's and you didn't steep at too high a temp (which may cause astringency), all good. Maybe you simply don't like or are not used to bitterness. Those 44 IBUs is appropriate for that style, and should nicely balance with the hops, residual sugars, and alcohol produced.

What did you use for "aroma" hops and how much? What time did you add those to the boil? How long did it take to chill your wort to around 140F? This part of the process is very important, and often overlooked.
The longer and the hotter the wort remains, the more bittering takes place, especially with a good dose of late addition hops.

 

[IslandLizard]

Are there some brands of extract that are better than others? I was mainly looking for something without hop additions. Brewferm is all I could find.

Yes, there are differences, but from renowned maltsters they should all be good.

Age and storage temps of liquid malt extract (LME) are much more important than brand. A can that sat on a shelf for a year (or 2) won't be as good as one that is fresh. So look at dates. Buy them as fresh as you can. Some shops here in the U.S. will pour out LME on demand from a plastic barrel. They tend to be the freshest, as long as the shop has a good turnover of their inventory.

DME, however, is much, much more stable, since it's dry. You can also use partial bags, seal them up and store cool and dry. They'll keep for years, fine.

The extract you used, was that unhopped? Unhopped extracts are generally better than (pre-)hopped ones.

Also, hopped extracts should never be boiled, they merely need to be dissolved in warm water and the temps should not rise above 140-150F as bittering processes start to become prominent above that, while you lose aroma and flavor quickly.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Is this the recipe?

Cincinnati Pale Ale
Ingredients:
3-4 lbs. of Pale malt extract syrup, unhopped.
3 lbs. of Amber dry malt extract.
12 AAUs of Bittering Hop (any variety)
5 AAUs of Finishing Hop (Cascade or other)
3 packets of dried ale yeast

What hops did you use, how much, and at what times in the boil? Do you know the %AA of each? Those are important factors that cause bittering in wort.

AAU is the weight of a hop addition multiplied by her %AA. For example 1 oz of hops with a 12% AA, or 1.5oz of hops with 8% AA, will each yield 12 AAU.
As a bittering hop they're typically added at the beginning of the boil. You can use an IBU calculator, like this one at Brewer's Friend to see how many IBUs this generates. The longer in the boil the more bittering, although it's far from linear. For example those 12 AAUs will yield 44 IBUs in a 60' boil of 1.055 wort. That's a proper amount for that style (Pale Ale) and recipe.

The recipe is from the latest edition of, How to Brew and is slightly different.

This is the recipe I followed:
5.0 lbs Pale Ale DME
0.5 lb Caramel 80°L malt steeped (This is where I used the crystal malt) Another mistake? They use EBC to classify grain and I was not aware of that, so I had to make a decision on the spot or go without)

0.5 oz Nugget (12%AA)
0.5 oz Cascade (7% AA)
0.5 oz Amarillo (10% AA)

2 packages Saffale S-05 Yeast

I converted the recipe for LME and created the wort with the LME. THe grains were steeped at 150°F for 30 minutes. Drained and then brought the wort to a boil.

First hop addition at 0 minutes
second hop addition at 45 minutes
Third hop addition at flame out ( 60 minutes)

The wort chilled super fast, about 15 minutes, using an immersion chiller. My tap water comes out at a chilly 58°F so that was great.

I brought it down to 68°F and pitched the rehydrated yeast.

Fermentation took of within 24 hours and bubbled quite vigorously.
OG 1.035 (called for 1.042)
FG 1.010
ABV 3.3%

I took 3 readings during fermentation and waited for it to stabilize. I primed with 3/4 glucose as a simple syrup , the bottled. I let it stand for 2 weeks before sampling.

It is not that it is a bad beer, but middle of the road average at best. I tend to gravitate towards a more malt profile so it could be my own bias.

Also, after doing more reading, I learned that a lot of people chill the wort down to 140-150 when doing hop additions. I didn't do that. (Rookie mistake?)

I think what I would do next time is do a partial mash using a brew bag and create a wort, then create the rest of the wort using DME. Follow the hop schedule but when adding the Amarillo hops chill the wort to 150 and let it steep for 15 minutes.

I am happy that I was able to create a reasonably drinkable beer my first time. I would like to tweak it to my tastes.

Thanks a bunch for walking through all this with me. I really appreciate it.

 

[corax]

I'd be concerned about the discrepancy between the predicted and actual OG. Using extract, you should be able to hit your target within 1 or 2% (you are off by ~17%). The lower gravity (and resulting higher IBU) would certainly account for the lack of balance you describe.

If you did the conversion from dry to liquid extract correctly, then perhaps your volume was too high?

 

[1bottlerocket]

I'd be concerned about the discrepancy between the predicted and actual OG. Using extract, you should be able to hit your target within 1 or 2% (you are off by ~17%). The lower gravity (and resulting higher IBU) would certainly account for the lack of balance you describe.

If you did the conversion from dry to liquid extract correctly, then perhaps your volume was too high?

Agreed. The volume was too high. I calculated about a 15% loss and it was much lower, closer to 10% boil off. I think my math may have been off on the conversion from dry to liquid too. Perhaps I should just make another batch and try to get my OG within the 1% before I go adjusting other things. Thanks for the input!