Adding yeast starter

[greggor]

I have a question about adding my yeast starter to my cooled wort in the fermenter. I am making my yeast starter by mashing 1.5 lbs straight 2 row at150 F resulting a gallon of wort for at 1.035 OG the day before brew day. Then on brew day I plan to add the entire starter at high krausen to the wort. I subtract the 1.5 lbs of starter 2 row from the original recipe, my questions are; I only boiled my starter wort for 15 minutes and the starter sparge grain bed was very shallow resulting in a not so clear starter wort plus a lot of trub in the bottom of the starter. Will either of these two elements negatively affect my beer when pouring in the whole starter, should I try to leave the sediment behind as I am only 24 hours into my yeast starter ferment (high Krausen)? or is there a lot of yeast in the sediment?

 

[dr_finklestein]

If it is protein sediment (grains and such), you don't want that in your beer. Did you vorlaf the starter wort?

 

[TommyBoy]

Out of curiousity why don't you just use DME for your starter? It would be a lot easier.

 

[davesrose]

I subtract the 1.5 lbs of starter 2 row from the original recipe, my questions are; I only boiled my starter wort for 15 minutes and the starter sparge grain bed was very shallow resulting in a not so clear starter wort plus a lot of trub in the bottom of the starter.

You're saying you're going to subtract 1.5 lbs for the recipe for the beer?? That's going to lower your OG for the beer itself. A starter is not part of the beer that you're fermenting: it's a way to increase the amount of yeast that you're pitching.

Most people make a starter from DME because it's much easier. I like using light dry malt extract.

 

[greggor]

OK This didn't really answer my question but I will defend my use of a mini mash to make my starter VS using DME. my LHBS charges over $6 an LB for DME so if were talking about simplicity I would be further ahead buying two packs of yeast.
I make my starter with 1.5 lbs of 2 row at $0.70 per lb. making a mini mash this small is super easy I just heat 2 quarts of water to 161 F in a stock pot add my grain then put it in a 170 F preheated oven for an hour. Then transfer the grain to a large funnel fitted with a false bottom pour some 170 F water over it till I have a gallon, then boil.
Now for Q 2 if my beer is going to be a 1.035 original gravity beer and I make my starter the same OG I am effectively adding the same volume and gravity of starter beer to my wort so all is equal no dilution from the starter beer only difference is the stater beer has already mostly fermented. That is why I subtract the 1.5 lbs of 2 row from my recipe (and also reducing my collected wort by 1 gallon)
I am really wondering if the short boil will be detrimental to the finished product, are there things that are not taking place by only boiling for 15 minutes.

 

[BuzzCraft]

If you're committed to mashing for your starter, knock yourself out. As far as adding your starter to your wort, I personally think it's much easier to predict the final outcome by only pitching the yeast and not counting the starter as part of the beer, esp considering that you're talking a whole gallon of unhopped beer you're going to be tossing in there.

There's plenty of evidence that high krausen may not be the ideal time to pitch a starter anyhow, from a yeast health standpoint. I'd say your best bet is to let it ferment out, cool the starter to drop the yeast out, decant most of the unhopped beer and pitch mainly yeast.

If you're intent on pitching the whole thing, I personally don't think the short boil is an issue. I'd be more concerned with proper adjustments/accounting for hops, etc when you boil your main wort so that you end up with the beer you're envisioning.

 

[davesrose]

Now for Q 2 if my beer is going to be a 1.035 original gravity beer and I make my starter the same OG I am effectively adding the same volume and gravity of starter beer to my wort so all is equal no dilution from the starter beer only difference is the stater beer has already mostly fermented. That is why I subtract the 1.5 lbs of 2 row from my recipe (and also reducing my collected wort by 1 gallon).

But unless you're brewing a simple barleywine, most beer recipes also have specialty grains mashed. That plus the difference in volume for your hop boil: there are factors that are influenced by the difference in volume. I would still recommend keeping a starter the way it was intended: a way of raising yeast cell count.

As for your question about a 15 minute boil: actually, that's another reason for not incorporating the full volume of this starter in your finished beer. While a full boil is good for hops, it's also used to drive off DMS (which imparts a grain taste if left in the wort). In the very least, I would cool down your starter after it's done fermenting....decant/syphon off the clearest part of the batch. Most of your yeast cells are in that sediment in the bottom. If you don't pitch that, then there's no use in making a starter.

 

[JMSetzler]

DME is more expensive for sure, but I still prefer to use it for yeast starters for simplicity purposes. One pound @ $6 sounds expensive but its enough to make at least 3 starters. I generally make 1 liter starters and let them go for 48 hours prior to pitching. I occasionally buy a 3lb bag of DME when I order other ingredients and it usually costs about $11 from Midwest. I transfer it to a plastic tupperware container to keep it dry and it lasts for quite a while.

 

[NotALamer]

HTB says to pitch at least 18 hours after the starter has reached peak activity so that the yeast can build up trehalose and glycogen reserves. He also says only to pitch while the yeast is active if the starter wort is similar in composition to the wort you are pitching to, because the yeast will have generated enzymes for the sugar profile contained in the starter.

I just did my first brew about two weeks ago, I let the starter ferment for about two days and then put it in the fridge because I had some minor delays. After about two days in the fridge I took it out, let it warm to room temperature, decanted off most of the starter wort, and then pitched it. The blowoff hose was bubbling regularly within about 18 hours and I haven't had any issues so far.

 

[greggor]

Hmm hop utilization in the boil?? I agree there may be lower utilization but I feel that is very minor I toss my pellets in without a hop bag I would suspect those that keep their hops in a hop bag get a more utilization loss than me boiling 9 gallons of wort and adding a gallon of un hopped starter. You use a formula, Rager or otherwise to get an idea of your utilization but you really need to dial that in through re brewing a recipe and adjusting your hops till you nail it.

In the future I guess I will be chilling and decanting, my schedule didn't allow for that this time, also I usually have sterile canned wort from a previous brew session that I use to make my starters but I was out for this brew.

 

[greggor]

Also in an interview with Chris White of White labs he says anything less than a 2 liter starter is not enough medium to encourage yeast growth. Making a 1 liter starter is pretty much a waste of effort all you are really doing is waking the yeast up to go to work and then if you chill and decant you have just put the yeast back to sleep. I have heard this from several other sources as well including Jamil in his yeast starter podcast over on the BN

 

[Snafu]

hmmmm, I usually just do a simple 1000ml / 100g (dme) starter and have never had an issue. This ends up at a 040. I also toss in a pinch of food for the yeast. This pic is after 2 days, seems pretty active eh?

 

[davesrose]

Also in an interview with Chris White of White labs he says anything less than a 2 liter starter is not enough medium to encourage yeast growth. Making a 1 liter starter is pretty much a waste of effort all you are really doing is waking the yeast up to go to work and then if you chill and decant you have just put the yeast back to sleep. I have heard this from several other sources as well including Jamil in his yeast starter podcast over on the BN

They are talking about the actual size of the starter wort. I'm sure there's many a debate about what the optimal yeast cell count is for pitching....but I have never heard any reputable brewer say they're making a starter the same gravity as the beer they're making, so they can lower the volume of the beer wort.

Also, a starter is for raising yeast cell count: when you chill it, it's already gone through active fermentation. During active fermentation, yeast go through a prolific cell reproduction phase (especially if you're keeping it well aerated). The sediment that forms at the bottom of your starter vessel has a greater mass then that same sediment that started in the White Labs yeast vial. Yes, when you chill it, it then goes dorment...but you have at least doubled it to 300 billion cells if not more. Then when you take it out on brew day, it's like using 3 vials of White Labs instead of one.

Furthermore, if your estimated gravity for the beer is 1.035, you don't even need much of any starter (use Mr Malty and see).